March 14, 2025, 08:02:07 PM

Author Topic: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!  (Read 278722 times)

Offline Sabre002

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #930 on: February 04, 2021, 04:07:57 PM »
I have found this page to be helpful for some of the options on Holley I have been thinking about.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9VpHpFG8CvbNF_9xZjWxkw

Josh
Manager Business Development, Mazda Motorsports
For info on how to join the Mazda Motorsports Team Support Program Email me.
Jsmit295@mazdausa.com

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #931 on: February 04, 2021, 04:24:11 PM »
Very nice channel!  Thanks for sharing.  I've seen some of his videos but never clicked into his profile.

Offline Exidous

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #932 on: February 04, 2021, 11:49:02 PM »
As I look into Holley more I realize I'd need the Dominator which at $2100 I might as well get the EMTRON for an extra $300 and have the ability to do literally everything the heart desires.

If you don't need anything fancy the HP and X really are awesome ECU's.
94 BB Sleeved gen IV LS7, MS3ProU with TC, RONIN 8.8 and LT's with custom 3.5"single to VAREX muffler.

Offline digitalsolo

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #933 on: February 05, 2021, 07:51:33 AM »
The Emtron stuff looks great.  Seems like a Motec for less $$.    Was a solid consideration when I bought my Haltech.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline FC3S Murray

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #934 on: February 05, 2021, 06:51:00 PM »
Great info! Thanks!!


Well I am kinda of a sucker for the old HPTuners stuff BUT if I was building a hotrod or race car these sound like great options.


I have been tuning multiple cars and trucks the last couple years so GM's software makes "sense" to me due to so much exposure and repetitive use.





13 years of abuse and still running STRONG!

SRM Performance Tuning LLC
https://www.instagram.com/fc3s_murray/?hl=en

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #935 on: February 07, 2021, 04:02:51 PM »
This was going to be a short post to talk about something else but I kept rambling about the car so I'll just make two posts.

I wouldn't be a car guy if I didn't make a boring cold start idle video so here you go -



I drove the car 2 hours yesterday and spent 15-20 minutes in miserable LA traffic.  The 15N to Vegas is down to 1 lane and everyone was trying to get there for the superbowl.  I moved my IAT sensor and epoxied it into the intake manifold and it works phenomenally.  The IATs sitting idle climbed from 75-80 up to 150+ and the ECU kept everything perfect.  I could feel the self learn continue to do its thing and get better the longer I was idling around.  Cooling performance was great with the electric water pump keeping coolant temp below 200 with a 185 thermostat.  The cooling fans also didn't impact the engine tune like it did before with the MAF sensor.



The tune continues to improve everywhere and honestly drives quite well right now.  It'll buck like mad if you don't give it throttle on take-off so I need to see what is causing that, but if you give it some load the car drives very smooth.  It also tries to stall if you clutch in from too high of an RPM so I need to either slow down the drop, or make the catch more aggressive.  It is a bit of a mind-f to tune on the tables in this car because of the giant 105mm throttle body. It idles with this cam around 65 kPA and when you first give it load it drops to 30-40 range, but from 40% throttle position you're back up to ~90kPa.  I have this giant fuel and spark table but it feels like it spends most of the time in just a few rows.  Because of this I've found some areas where I had spark jumping 5-8 degrees as it goes in unexpected directions in the table causing bucking so I just need to continue to manually review these trouble spots and improve them.   

There are some light chuggles when going on/off load in low rpm regions, but I also have extremely low driveline intertia with the RPS clutch and it honestly always did this with the smaller cam and the e40 ecu as well to some extent.  I need to experiment with more/less timing in those areas and see what it likes.

I got my fuel pressure, flex fuel and speed input all working in the Holley. Still struggling with the tach - worst case I can buy a dakota digital converter but I really feel like I should be able to get this work via the Holley.  I can't believe they output an 8cyl tach output that isn't programmable when so many of these go onto LS engines.  I've burned enough fuel now that I can throw in some E85 and start playing with that.  It won't be night and day power gains, but at 11:1 compression making ~600hp I think e85 will help it out some especially in the midrange and part throttle high load regions.  It also keeps the engine cooler while hammering on it.

Power is insane and the powerband has never been as broad or as smooth.  This is definitely feeling like a very optimized engine package now with the "proper" duration camshaft for the engine combo.  It is a pretty big dickhead machine, but as the tune improves it is mellowing out some.  The easier it is to drive the less I feel like it draws attention at low speeds.

My dad took it for a spin while I rode passenger and watched the logs.  It pulls very hard to 7200 and even if you short shift it at 6700 it doesn't feel like it loses any momentum.  Estimation is it is solidly a 135+ mph trapping car right now making it faster than our 9.9x drag car with a 416.  Power is still very manageable on these Maxxis slicks, and the car gets your heart racing.  The way the power is delivered from the FD right now is very impressive.  All the work I've done to the driveline to improve efficiency and smoothness is finally paying off.  For an engine with dead stock ls3 heads I couldn't be more impressed with the performance.

I noticed my 275 wide 18's are rubbing on the inner fenders up front.  I also haven't been thrilled with the steering feel on the street for the giant tire.  I think in the future I'll throw a 255 up front on the 9.5 wheel it'll fit better and the slight stretch should improve steering response.  I loved the steering feel of the 255/40/17's.

I also want to schedule a corner balance and alignment appointment.  I'll probably reach out to CHE Works for anyone in Socal that knows who I'm talking about.  I corner balanced the car myself when I first got the car together but have made tons of changes since then.  The car has always been a little ass-down in the rear which improved the cross weight and f/r balance - but I don't think is the correct way to setup the car and it always looks a little off.  I could also use a little more ride-height with the 18's and I want more camber so I can put my spacers on in the rear and take more advantage of these tires all around.

Here's the dirty girl still with the road grime and snow residue from when I blew the coolant surge tank in January 2020 up on Angeles Crest lol.


Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #936 on: February 07, 2021, 04:17:40 PM »
So now the update on the LS7.

I continue to struggle with this block.  It has been dual torque plate honed twice now, once as a free re-work, pushing piston to wall to the maximum allowable but still ok.  I have no blame or finger pointing to the shop - moreso I am seeing this as a lesson learned that I will never try to hone an LS7 block again - new GM 4.125" or sleeved from now on.  The bores are still out of round .0013".  GM service limits are .0008" and don't even spec what new block tolerance should be.  Basically roundness and straightness should be as close to 0 as possible for ring seal.  If you research at all online .0013" out of round and expecting ring seal is ridiculous.

I'm very concerned now as my only options are basically assemble it as is and hope it doesn't have blowby and ringseal issues, or I go back to the well of money I wish I had and sleeve the block, buy new pistons and rings, and have it honed it again.  The rework I'm looking at another $4-4500 total in the eleventh hour when I'm already rather fatigued on spending money on this thing.

If I sleeved it I would get domed pistons at 4.185 bore and build a 14:1 compression 440 instead of a 12:1 compression 429.

I'm quite torn on what to do.  It isn't right as is, but some are saying that LS blocks move around so much while running it isn't worth losing sleep over the out of round and hourglass/taper we're seeing.  Simply, it is as good as you can get them and it all works out while running.

I'm really struggling with that - I'm contacting some shops that do sleeving and also trying to get some other people's experience who have been through similar.  I would hate to run the engine and have to take it apart, or simply have it not make the power it should because of ring seal or the bores wear out from excessive blowby.

This 'bucket list' engine has been a black hole for money for the last 3 years and I really just want to wrap this thing up - on the other hand this is an engine I want to take with me to other cars and racing disciplines in the future when I get tired of it in a street car and I want to make it worth it. 

I'm leaning towards wanting to sleeve the block but would love for someone to convincingly prove to me I should just slap it together and run the bitch and have it all work out.  I have a lot of life things upcoming that need money including house things, needing a new car, and other life things that would make it hard to come up with the scratch right now.

Offline Cobranut

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #937 on: February 07, 2021, 08:05:25 PM »
Wow.  I'm surprised you're having trouble with getting these round.
Is this a common issue with LS motors, or is it specific to the LS7?

If the bores change this much with the temps encountered during honing, I wonder what happens when the motor is actually running at WOT.   :o
1995 FD, 7.0 Liter stroked LS3, T56, 8.8, Samberg kit.

Offline wickedrx7

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #938 on: February 07, 2021, 09:05:42 PM »
I was thinking of going to 275-35-18 square setup this year if I track the car... But for the street, I would probably run 255 up front, to improve street manors. 

As for the LS7, did you check it before you did any machine work?  For the cylinders that are out of round, is it in a similar manor/location?  What does the machine shop say? 

 

1993 Touring, 2012 L99, T-56, Ronnin 8.8, Ohlins, Speedhut, Samberg and lots of custom parts
Build Thread - http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=19354.0
Pictures - www.flikr.com/wickedrx7

Offline Exidous

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #939 on: February 08, 2021, 01:10:47 AM »
Could you not sleeve the block you have and reuse the pistons?
94 BB Sleeved gen IV LS7, MS3ProU with TC, RONIN 8.8 and LT's with custom 3.5"single to VAREX muffler.

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #940 on: February 08, 2021, 11:53:30 AM »
Well I wasn't going to be able to wait a week to get my answer.  I drove back to my dad's last night to break the mains loose, torque the mains on the table, torque the heads on the block on both sides, and measured the bores from the bottom.  This was the process that Steve at R.E.D. recommended to get the best measurements. Saw next to no, if any change to the bore shape, size and taper.

I'll be sleeving the block. I'll decide 4.130 vs larger bore and higher compression later. I have no doubt I could assemble and run the engine and I bet it would even perform well, but for the time and money into this already I don't want any "what ifs" in the back of my mind or potential for needing to rework it after it is assembled.

I will also use another shop for the hone on the Darton sleeves who I know has the diamond hones and can hit the correct surface finishes.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 12:11:28 PM by MPbdy »

Offline kinger

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #941 on: February 08, 2021, 12:07:08 PM »
I was going to say sleeve it.  I wouldn't run it like that, but that is me I like to feel confident its 100%.  Going to be an absolute beast!
93 Touring, 6.3L, T56 Magnum, Mamo RPS BC2 clutch, FAST 90, NW 90TB TB, 8.8, samberg everything, AC, PS, TC, Cruise, LED Tails, HID head lights

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #942 on: February 08, 2021, 12:38:28 PM »
I was going to say sleeve it.  I wouldn't run it like that, but that is me I like to feel confident its 100%.  Going to be an absolute beast!

It is 2 month wait for Steve at RED to be ready to sleeve it, but it has already been 3 years.  What's another delay...if I'm lucky I'll be racing twice in March so usually I don't get any work done when racing gets busy anyway.  At least the car is running and something I can enjoy.  I was really close to bailing on the Holley install and pulling the engine out in anticipation of the new engine.

I have some really experienced people saying that it'll all work out and to stop worrying about it, but it is so hard to accept.  I've heard first hand and third hand from different machine shops that say they can never get the LS7 bores consistent.  The shop I'm using has one customer who forces them to deliver the blocks with the torque plates still on it so they can measure and verify the bores before returning the torque plates because once it is broken loose you can never replicate the good bores that were measured during honing, even after bolting dual torque plates back on.

My dad has been hugely successful for a home engine builder by being a hardass and not accepting things that aren't 100%. He is willing to screw this one together knowing it might need to come back apart, but I don't want to deal with that exercise.  I don't think I could handle the disappointment   Ring seal is literally everything in an engine.  For big bore engines in the future it is only GM prepped LS7 blocks or sleeved blocks from now on.

I can decide in the future if I want to stick with my existing rings and pistons and build it at 4.130 bore, or if I want to spend the money and get new custom pistons for a 14:1, 440 cube build.  If I wanted to save these 4.130 pistons and rings for a future build I have another complete rotating assembly.  I have a second LS7 crank and Ti rods on the shelf I found locally for $600 I just need one rod.  I could also sell it all and prevent future pain and probably cover the cost of the sleeving.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 12:45:00 PM by MPbdy »

Offline Exidous

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #943 on: February 08, 2021, 01:59:46 PM »
I thought about high compression too but restricting myself to e85 just sounded gross. So far I've been happy with 12:1. I'm at the limit of pump gas but it holds well. The only reason I went 440 was because it cost me $0 to do so. If I already had 427 forged pistons letting around if have a 427 engine.

Not exactly apples to apples but my block is a sleeved gen 4 5.3. With and without torque plates the round only changed about .0005". Crazy they are having so many issues.
94 BB Sleeved gen IV LS7, MS3ProU with TC, RONIN 8.8 and LT's with custom 3.5"single to VAREX muffler.

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #944 on: February 08, 2021, 02:48:50 PM »
Yeah it would be e85, and carry some cans of boostane around if only pump gas was available.  I think it would be doable. Higher effort for sure.  12:1 on 91 octane would still need a little splash of e85 or boostane for me to feel confident I was getting everything out of it.