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Author Topic: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!  (Read 278712 times)

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #870 on: June 15, 2020, 12:57:54 PM »
Just peace of mind I guess.  They're the tri-armor coated Clevites.  Non-coated clevites went in the rods as my coated standards were fitting up too loose.  I had a hard time finding the coated rod bearings in anything other than standards last time I ordered them.  I have coated main and rod bearings in my LS2 and it has lived through a lot of abuse, but we've also have had great luck with the non-coated clevites.  My dad's last race big block went 1200 runs with non-coated bearings and literally everything looks brand new coming out of it.

The rods did fine with ARP bolts, and we've done a number of factory rods with ARP bolts and have never had to resize them.  Just a dumb oversight not to catch the mains before it went to the shop the first time.

I do worry a bit about the RPM I want to spin I want to give the thing a chance at living, but then I remind myself there are people taking SBE engines with aluminum bearings to 8000 rpm lol.  Nothing will matter if the crank touches at 8000 rpm, but maybe the coating does a better job at holding onto the oil.  Keeping the thing properly oiled is going to be most important.

Offline radiomike

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #871 on: June 15, 2020, 05:58:23 PM »
How does the align hone work, by definition you are removing metal so the main housings in the block are going to be larger and you will alter the pre-load on the bearings? Can you get bearings with a larger OD?  You could grind a couple of thou off the bearing caps but that would only help if the block is out of true in the vertical, if it is out of true horizontally I cannot see how it can be rectified.

Many years ago at Ford UK we had oversize OD mains available to reclaim blocks that had been line bored incorrectly or damaged by a broken cutting tool.

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #872 on: June 15, 2020, 06:11:11 PM »
My understanding is how you said it - first step is to grind down the caps by 2-3 thou which will make the bores no longer circular.  They're honed with a bar that goes all the way through the mains.  Since the caps are ground it maintains the proper crush on the bearing.  Everything should be concentric and in spec when finished.

Aluminum blocks are tricky because the caps are steel and the block is aluminum.  Different strengths mean the material is being removed at different rates, and they heat differently too.  I honestly don't know how they manage that aspect of it.

If not setup properly, yes it absolutely ruins the block and I'm kind of nervous because my bores are already finished and we've already installed the oil squirters.  Non-trivial time and money into this block already. 

My LS2 that is in the car now had a bad align hone done and the mains came back worse than they left.  The second time they did it the crank wasn't flat in the engine it was in at an angle and it was pinching on the thrust.  The crank wouldn't even turn.  I'm not using the shop that did the ls2.

You do raise the crank in the block, and if they go too far the timing chain is too slack and you need a special set which almost no one makes for the LS engines.  One go I'll probably be fine with the standard timing set, but after two hones with the LS2 I had to find a different timing set.

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #873 on: June 22, 2020, 03:42:44 PM »
Helped my dad load the LS7 block into his car yesterday so it'll go to the shop this week.  I don't think they're too busy these days so hopefully it'll come back quickly.

I'm ready to spill the beans on the brake setup.  Got far enough along on this now that I think it is actually going to happen lol.  Have made a bunch of progress recently.

Fall last year I thought I'd get creative and put some Porsche calipers on the front with CX9 rotors and buy the SBG setup for the rear and move the stock caliper out to keep things in balance.  Well, the massive caliper didn't fit under the 17" Enkeis, and got super busy with life, so the stuff has just been sitting.  Then magically, a set of 18" wheels showed up and I have brake clearance haha.



This was originally intended to be a budget setup just to throw some bigger brakes up front wiht a CX9 rotor, but my dad (rightfully so) gave me a ton of shit about unsprung weight, rotating mass...etc etc. 

The pad is comically large compared to the ~credit card sized front pad from the stock rx7.



The front only cheap and cheerful project has now become a four wheel big brake project with 2 piece rotors that will be punching up at $7000-8000 Brembo/AP Racing territory for hopefully ~$3500 out of pocket.  More than half of that will be the custom rotors which would be much cheaper if the hats already existed.

The calipers are from a 2017+ Cayman S up front, and an '06 - '12 Cayman S in the rear.  Porsche is a parts bin company so I don't know the full list of models, but tons of 911's have used them too.




Rotor rings will be a 350x34 front and a 325x24 rear specific for the Porsche calipers.  Hats will be designed to my spec to fit the RX7.  For those keeping track, that is an increase of 2.2" front and 1.22" rear, and thickness increase of almost 1/2" front.

Before ordering custom rotors, they wanted me to verify fitment.  Actually putting my engineering degree to use for once lol I fired up my Solidworks from college and started drawing parts.






The front bracket and the rear rotor template are printing right now.  Should verify fitment on the front and get working on the rear fit-up next weekend.







So, how is it all going to work -

Doing some math on the brake torque output, there will be a rearward shift of mechanical/hydraulic brake bias by about 2.7%.  My goal will be to get away with still running the factory prop valve, but an adjustable one is an easy addition if this doesn't work out.  The factory bias is definitely heavily front biased, but 2.7% is a pretty big change.  Another thing I could try which is commonly done is to stagger pad compounds - slightly less friction in the rear would work as well.

Stock Balance Ratios = 67%/33%
New Balance Ratios = 64.3%/35.7%   
Percentage of original Torque at equal pressure = 134.2%/151.2%   


Doing some more math, with the increase in piston volume pedal travel is going to increase by ~19% vs where I'm at now.  At most I think the difference will be about 3/4".  When I built the car ages ago I put the 929 master cylinder in the car which I haven't hated, but it definitely takes some leg and I would say without question it is oversized for the stock brakes with a very short pedal.  The 1" master cylinder bore of the 929 MC pushes ~15% more fluid than stock.  It is also right in the same range as the stock Porsche MC with these brakes, so I should gain some travel back in the pedal but not so much that it feels long.  If it doesn't feel how I want, I can move my pedal ratio to fine tune it, but I'm thinking it should feel natural.  There is very little flex in the brakes currently with the pedal travel only going to taking up the pad air gap and then it feels solid.

The primary goal is an improvement in brake life, and thermal performance so they can actually be track worthy.  EBC Yellows are the best pad I've found for my use on the street that don't fade and have good bite, but they're dusted in 3000 miles up front and 5000 miles rear with no track time. 

The stock brakes aren't inadequate stopping power wise, but definitely are not up to the performance of the rest of the car.  I will say, with the new power, and the new tires...I have felt from both the driver seat and the passenger seat the need for a more aggressive application of the brakes from 120-130 mph.  It isn't that the power isn't there, its that it takes unnaturally high force application.  You really need to stomp on them now which can definitely lead to under-using the brakes at high speed.  I doubt I'll be able to do any stop tests or anything, but I think there's room for improvement in stopping distance, and also driver confidence without being so touchy that they lock up right away. 

Pretty excited to see how all this works out.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 05:29:49 PM by MPbdy »

Offline digitalsolo

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #874 on: June 22, 2020, 07:10:17 PM »
Looks like a promising, well thought out setup.  I'm excited to see it finished.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline paul_3rdgen

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #875 on: June 22, 2020, 07:13:49 PM »
Looking forward to see this come together! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
93 RX7 R1 500rwhp
LS2, H/C combo... ARE drysump
Race Logic traction Control and 4 wheel Stoptech BBK
3.73 gears installed in the stock diff  :o

Offline Venom13132

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Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #876 on: June 23, 2020, 07:13:00 AM »
Really cool with the caliper detail.  Any interest in sharing your bracket models?  Where are you getting rotors made?  Seems expensive!  I am guessing the rotors are off the shelf and the hats are where the cost is?
1995 RX-7 Voodoo Blue- LS3, TR6060: Full Feed wide body, 57DR 18's, K-Sport coil-overs, 99 spec\ tails and Carbon Fiber spoiler, SpeedHut Gauges, Aeromotive fuel system, TwinZ Diffuser, Texas Speed LS3 Stage 2 v2 Cam Kit, Comp Cam's Rockers, McLeod Racing 6405507M RXT Street Twin Clutch kit, ATI-1918628 - Super Damper/balancer, Lot's of other stuff.
2010 Cadillac Escalade: Daily Driver and pulls my 18' car hauler

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #877 on: June 23, 2020, 01:48:48 PM »
Thanks guys!  This has been a fun one so far. In that purgatory stage of having a bunch of money into it but still some details to work out, but so far so good lol.

Rotors will be from a company that I've worked with before who makes 2pc replacements for stock vehicles. What is awesome is that the rotor rings are specific to the Porsche calipers for size and machining of the pad face...not cobbled together like I was trying to do before.  I'll definitely share more details when they're finalized.  For the Porsche it is $2300 retail for all four for full floating 2pc rotors.  I think there's some Porsche tax as their other vehicles aren't that much.  The rotors will be the lion share of the cost.

The calipers I'm only into ~$900 off ebay for front and rear.  There are a ton of Porsche dismantlers out there I've found through this.

Let me get a bit further and make sure everything is lining up and works.  If it works really well I'm toying with the idea of kitting up a few sets to help recoup some cost.

If I knew this was going to be my destination from the outset I should have just gone through StopTech for a 4 wheel kit, but this has been a fun project and might turn out something pretty neat in the end.   

Offline radiomike

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #878 on: June 23, 2020, 03:48:24 PM »
I like the monoblock Porsche front caliper but what are the plans for a parking brake?

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #879 on: June 23, 2020, 04:53:42 PM »
I have a rear upright being delivered this week and when I look at the rear caliper mount I'll also take a look at adding a parking brake.  There are a few options I've looked at. They're all quite a bit of money for something that isn't really exciting lol.


Offline Exidous

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #880 on: June 23, 2020, 06:11:06 PM »
Wilwood makes a parking brake that is decently priced. Mounting it is the trick.
94 BB Sleeved gen IV LS7, MS3ProU with TC, RONIN 8.8 and LT's with custom 3.5"single to VAREX muffler.

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #881 on: June 24, 2020, 12:22:12 PM »
Wilwood makes a parking brake that is decently priced. Mounting it is the trick.

Yeah that I think is the lowest cost option I've seen.  Any thoughts on just having a parking brake on one side?

I've been looking at how some of the dual caliper kits mount and I don't think it would be too tough to get something mounted.  Fixturing the cable will probably be the trickiest part.

There are aftermarket controllers for the Tesla electronic parking brake, but it is going to be heavy and very expensive again for something I don't care that much about lol.  Wilwood also have an electronic parking brake option now.

Offline Exidous

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #882 on: June 24, 2020, 01:03:59 PM »
I think reusing the cable already there would be easy enough. Just need a new bracket for the cable. The electronic brake wouldn't be a bad option but I'm guessing it's a fair bit more expensive. Sourcing off a wrecked car may be a better option financially. The VW Golfs use one I believe.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-140-15979-rd?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw88v3BRBFEiwApwLevf7cOvrXT2yYXntjrrpFTaODICRFURO8vEXnge99lrhaOrJu2bAluhoCnI4QAvD_BwE

Yup, not cheap.
94 BB Sleeved gen IV LS7, MS3ProU with TC, RONIN 8.8 and LT's with custom 3.5"single to VAREX muffler.

Offline MPbdy

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #883 on: June 24, 2020, 02:09:42 PM »
I think reusing the cable already there would be easy enough. Just need a new bracket for the cable. The electronic brake wouldn't be a bad option but I'm guessing it's a fair bit more expensive. Sourcing off a wrecked car may be a better option financially. The VW Golfs use one I believe.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-140-15979-rd?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw88v3BRBFEiwApwLevf7cOvrXT2yYXntjrrpFTaODICRFURO8vEXnge99lrhaOrJu2bAluhoCnI4QAvD_BwE

Yup, not cheap.

Unfortunately those electronic ones don't use a simple +12V switch to operate the motor they need a controller.  The Tesla e-brakes themselves are super cheap on ebay but the aftermarket controllers are costly.  Still way cheaper than that Wilwood kit.

The Teslas are nice because they're a standalone parking brake caliper separate from the existing rear caliper. The vast majority of OEM e-parking brakes are integrated into the caliper like the manual ones would be.

It would be nifty, but the motor and caliper each I imagine is 10+ pounds. A bunch of unsprung weight to add.



Offline digitalsolo

Re: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!
« Reply #884 on: June 25, 2020, 12:00:22 AM »
I'd not seen those parking brakes from the Teslas...   a little reading says it's just run with an H-Bridge like a power window motor.   So either 2 relays/caliper or a dual h-bridge, like a Pololu dual motor driver.   You could even current sense drive it with a little Arduino box.    Verrrrrrrrry interesting, I could simply my center console with an electric parking brake...

Sorry. squirrel.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.