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Author Topic: 403 LS2 FD - LS7 Build for 2020!  (Read 278706 times)

Offline DRTHVDR

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Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2010, 10:04:23 AM »
I'm waiting for some updates. :D

You don't need a better ride, your ride needs a better driver.
93 RX-7 R1 CYM: Bastard

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2010, 03:34:01 AM »
Thanks for the interest.  I've been distracted the past couple weeks by another car.  I'm just getting back to this thing.

Workin on a few things at once.  I started messing with the turbo 2 diff today.  It was taken apart once before.  All the disks are near brand new spec.  The thrust washers are right in the middle.  The conical springs were installed backwards  :confused:  Oh well, that's why you take things apart I guess.

I'm looking at different ways to increase the preload before putting it back together.  I've read about low hp miatas spinning the inside rear with the stock preload.  The breakaway torque stock is supposed to be around 35 ft lb.  I want to bump it up to 60 or 80 ft lb.  The only way I've read about doing this is with soda can shims.  The aluminum breaks down and loses preload very quickly...not good for a driver.

So anyways, this is what the inside of the clutch pack looks like.  I should be tackling the fuel system and engine stuff here soon too.







« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 01:08:16 PM by Daniel »

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2010, 01:37:52 PM »
The gallery kicks ass!  I finally gave it a try, and now I'm in love.  Fu imageshack :)

Its hot!  Already 90 degrees by 10 am :(  I guess I'll take the time to update the build thread now.  I've been lazy about sitting down to write it all out.


This last weekend was really productive.  I finally got the turbo 2 clutch pack installed and the rear end is fully assembled.  I didn't take many pictures of the process, but assembling the diff is extremely easy.  You just clean everything, measure it all, and throw everything back in there in the correct order.  One unique thing that I am trying is a different order on the clutches in the stackup.

The stock order is Case - 3 springs - 2 clutches - 1 plate - center drum.  The springs are conical springs that compress flat when tightened.  The clutches are the part that spin, and they are splined to the axle gear.  The plate is similar to the clutches, but it is splined to the case and does not rotate.

In the stock order, there are two sides of the clutches that do not do anything.  That is two wasted friction surfaces!  The new order that we assembled it in was this.

Case - 3 springs - 1 clutch - 1 plate - 1 clutch - center drum.

This new order means that the spinning clutches are being applied against a friction surface on all sides.  The only reservation we had for this order was that the clutch will be spinning against the center drum.  It is an extremely hard piece of metal however, so it should not cause an issue.
_________

Why does all of this matter?  Well, a clutch pack differential has a certain amount of static preload.  This preload is measured by a breakaway torque.  This torque is measured by inserting the stub shafts into the diff, holding one end stationary, and rotating the other end with a torque wrench.



Static friction is greater than kinetic friction, so your breakaway torque will be the highest number you read.  Once it starts moving, torque will drop off substantially.  A digital torque wrench is handy for measuring this.

A higher preload makes it more difficult for the car to spin the inside tire coming out of a corner.  Most people are familiar with a locker type posi where the diff is an on/off switch, fully locked or fully open.  Limited slip differentials get complicated fast.  A clutch pack does its best to send power to both wheels, but if its not strong enough you can still wind up with a one tire fire. 

Too high of a preload and the differential loses function.  It starts binding up and chattering at slow speeds like a welded diff.  This is bad for street driving, and also for autocross.  This binding and chattering means you're going to understeer very badly off throttle at slow speeds.  Road course guys like to get the preload extremely high.  They usually have only one slow speed corner, and its still faster than autocross stuff.

I read a lot about this from a guy on a miata forum with a 250 rwhp autocross miata.  He had his turbo 2 diff apart like 17 times trying to get the preload correct.  He was using soda can shims and increasing preload that way.  This put more pressure on the clutches by squeezing them harder.  This method was extremely sensitive.  1 thousandth of shim could cause a 20 ft lb increase in breakaway torque.  Also, the aluminum soda can shims will break down very quickly.  They flatten out and you lose your preload the more you drive.  I guess that is ok for a race car...not good for a street car. 

Long story short, by rearranging the order of the clutches it increased preload by 50% and I am very happy.  This was with everything lightly oiled when assembled.  I don't remember my breakaway numbers, and they aren't really relevant to anyone else anyways. 

There is more to come but I am lazy again :)

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2010, 07:26:29 PM »
Alright I guess I'll get back to it.

I ordered all new seals and bearings for the rear end through Ray at Malloy Mazda.  He's a great guy...hard on the check book though.

There are 3 different ways you can go about working on the rear end.

1)  Take everything apart, do what you want to do inside, replace nothing and put it back together.  Along with this, you have to pray to baby jesus that your bearing preload is still correct.
2)  Same as #1, but you replace the crush sleeve and reset your pinion torque.  This insures that your bearing preload is correct and you won't burn out the rear end.  Much better than #1.
3)  If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, replace everything.

I figured #3 was the best choice.  I hardly have extra money lying around, but the rear end is something I hope to never have to service again.  I also want the mazda rear end to live as long as possible.  I don't want it to have any excuse to explode on me.

So anyways, here is the reassembly of the FD rear end with a turbo 2 clutch pack differential.

I'm starting out with everything cleaned up and ready to go.  The old bearings have been pressed or pulled off, and the old bearing races and seals have been tapped out.  Clean slate.

The pinion bearing on this thing is MASSIVE.


A press made everything much easier.  It has been a very good investment for this project.  Between the bushings, the rear end, and all the other random jobs its been very worthwhile.  The press itself is a POS, but its much better than nothing.

Here the pinion, new bearing, and spacer are all lined up.  The spacer only goes on one direction.  You can do some damage if you press it on the wrong way.  My dad has a massive collection of old bearing races.  If you have a press it is a great idea to cut the race out and hold onto them.  They are excellent shoving tools.



Once again, press to the rescue.



Here is the clean housing with the inner pinion race tapped in.  I used a small hammer and a brass drift to get it in.  Be careful getting it started though.  If it starts in crooked it can be a serious pita.



The next series of pictures is how you install the pinion into the housing.  Don't forget the new crush sleeve!



Put the new outer pinion race in the same way as before.



The bearing is a press fit onto the pinion.  You have to drive it on.  I didn't take pictures, but another stack of old bearing races made it pretty easy to drive on.





This is the outer oil seal for the pinion.  Just gently tap it in.  Again, be careful with getting this one crooked.  Its much more fragile than the bearing races.



My dad likes to put silicone on the splines of the companion flange.  If you get it down into the splines themselves it will keep oil from seeping up and even getting to the oil seal. 



Now comes the fun part!  You need some way to put a BFbar on the companion flange, and a BFwrench on the nut.  I forget what the service manual said for the torque of the nut...but it was pretty comical.  I think it was something like 120-200 ft lb.  This picture was before it got tight.

What you're doing is compressing the new crush sleeve.  It needed .060 inch crush based on comparing it to the old sleeve.  You have to be extremely careful when doing this.  The amount of crush you put on the sleeve is what sets the preload on the bearings.  Too much crush and there is too much drag.  You will burn up your brand new bearings.  There is no way to undo if you go too far...time for a new oil seal and crush sleeve! 



The drag is measured in inch pounds.  The service manual calls for something like 11-15 inch pounds.  Once you feel that the up and down play is being taken up in the pinion, you need to start measuring the drag frequently.  For me, the drag was 2.5 inch pounds every time I measured it.  We were going in 1/8 turn increments at the bottom.  One more 1/8 turn and it jumped from 2.5 to 15 inch pounds...1/8 turn...

It was an oh $@!# moment, but it turned out to be perfect.  Can't argue with perfect :)



Next up is installing the carrier, measuring backlash, and bolting it all up.  Stay tuned for when my enthusiasm returns  :popcorn:

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2010, 02:30:34 AM »
After you crush the crush sleeve the diff housing is completely rebuilt.  The next thing to do is pop the carrier in there.

The best way to do it is to put one of the shims in and then put the carrier in.  Next you need to wedge the other shim in and then drive it in with a hammer. 



Hopefully when you took the diff apart you marked the bearing caps.  You definitely want to keep these on the side they came off of.  After you cinch the bearing caps you can feel the backlash in the ring gear.  You find out pretty quickly how screwed you are!



This can be a very tedious process.  The backlash is set by changing the thickness of the shims.  However much you add or remove from the right side you need to add to the left side.  If this were a 12 bolt or a 9 inch my dad has 100's of shims to use.  Being a mazda...we had zero.

The first time we checked the backlash I had 0 in one spot, and not much more than that all the way around. 

Fortunately, it only took one more attempt to get things right.  I vaguely remember reading online once that you need to flip the shims side to side when installing a turbo 2 diff into a 3rd gen housing.  All the measurements made sense, so I tried it.  The backlash was then 4 thousandths all the way around, nicely within spec.  It also had very little ring gear runout, which is a variation in backlash throughout the rotation of the ring gear. 

The backlash is measured by a dial indicator with a magnetic base.  You measure it in 4 places around the ring gear 90 degrees apart.  This gives you a pretty good idea about the runout.  Unfortunately there isn't really any other way to check this.  If you want to rebuild your rear end you will need to buy/borrow a dial indicator.



One awesome thing about reusing the ring and pinion is that I did not have to set either the pinion depth, or check the contact pattern on the gears.  Both of these can be extremely time consuming to get right.  The only thing left was to torque the bearing caps and bolt on the rear cover.

The 3rd gen housing does not use a gasket.  You need to make your own with silicone.  Also you can see the side oil seals that i forgot to install earlier.



Torqued down the rear cover, installed the diff mount, and filled it up with diff fluid.



Here it is back in the rear cradle.  My old diff bushings were completely ruined because the rear end hung unsupported for so long.  On the previous page you can see where one of them was almost entirely ripped out.  My dad quickly bent up a strap of metal to hold it up until we get it supported in the car.  The poly bushings would probably survive just fine, but no reason to needlessly stress them.



I left some of the bolts loose in the suspension so the axles could go back in easily.



At this point the axles need a really good shove.  One thing that everyone should replace are the axle clips.  I've read about a lot of people that have taken the axles out and cannot get them locked back in place.  They're just dweebly little steel clips, and are very cheap.





These nuts need to be torqued very tight.  The spec in the service manual was 175-225 or something like that.  I nailed them with the impact until it was as tight as it gets.  The impact doens't even do 200 ft lb.  After that a crow bar and a big torque wrench will get you to 200 ft lb.  I did not want to screw up the brand new wheel studs so I threw some spacers on there with the old lug nuts holding them on.  After the nut is torqued, stake the nut into the notch in the axle.



I have to do the fuel system before I put this back in the car, but its nice to be done.  The brakes are all freshened up.  I will be writing about that next.  I'll install this back in the car complete with the brakes on it and everything.  It will just need the 6 nuts and the e-brake hooked up and it will be done.




Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2010, 03:05:26 AM »
I didn't rebuild the brakes, but I wanted them to look pretty through my new wheels.  I started with the rears.  I have Hawk HPS pads to install later.  I bought them when I read nothing but good things about them, and recently everyone seems to hate them.  I'm sure they will work just fine.  I picked up some caliper paint at Napa.  I like how it came out looks wise.  Here's hoping it doesn't flake off as soon as it gets hot.



The calipers are stupid simple to take apart.  Two bolts and pop some clips out and they're fully apart.



Here they're all clean and masked off.  I masked off the brake line area, and the piston.



My pro paint booth.



Pop the clips back on, careful not to scratch the new paint.



The rear calipers are a fully floating design.  The smaller part bolts to the suspension and is stationary.  The piston pushes on the rotor and that moves the larger part of the caliper to apply both brake pads.  The caliper floats on these pins.  They need to be re-lubed before assembly.  Be careful not to put too much in there or it will hydrolock the pin from going all the way down.  This is way too much on the screw driver...but it made a good picture.



The pins are labeled L and G.  One is the lock pin and the other is the guide pin.  I have never seen this before, so I have no idea what the difference is.  The caliper has an L and a G on the body...make sure they go in the right hole.



Nice and pretty!  For now they're bagged up, but they will be going on the rear suspension soon.  The pads aren't in yet because I want to put anti squeal on them. 



Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2010, 03:13:12 AM »
I got the rotors done too.  They didn't seem to be in too bad of shape, just rusty and ugly.  I had them bead blasted and resurfaced.  They came out really nice.





Here is one of them masked off ready to paint.  I added new stations in my paint booth. 





The rotors came out bitchin.  I am pretty happy with the result.  A little black paint makes a huge difference.  Its not show car quality, but it helps.




I have the front calipers painted, but I'm not finished with them yet.  I should have pictures of them in the next few days.  Hopefully by then it won't be so damn hot!  That is all the updates for now.  Thanks for reading.

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2010, 01:11:19 PM »
All pictures have been replaced by gallery uploads :)

Imageshack had randomly deleted like 5 of my pictures  >:(

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2010, 02:32:54 AM »
Got a little more progress done today.  It feels like everything takes twice as long when its 100+ degrees outside.  My camera isn't so good in low light pictures.  A lot of them didn't come out.  The last two are all I've got from assembling the front brakes lol.  I also figure I wrote enough about my sub par painting skills so I'm skipping the front calipers.  The rear cradle is now fully assembled and ready to go back in the car.  The front suspension is complete now except for the sway bar and the steering arms.

I bought front and rear racing beat sway bars from Finney when he was de-modding his car.  The front bar ran into one of the hard power steering lines, but its no big deal.  The sway bar mounts are sand blasted currently.  I want to look into some way of reinforcing them without paying for the widefoot mounts.  My idea requires the radiator to at least be mocked up first to make sure nothing interferes.  The radiator position is way more important than the sway bar mounts.

My dad got his flow bench all back up and running again.  Its leveled and refilled with oil so the manometers can be calibrated.  Looking forward to doing a comparison between the LS2 and the LSA head.  We may even port the LSA heads some.




« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 02:48:00 AM by Daniel »

Offline bikedad

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2010, 09:25:25 AM »
Very nice buildup. I'm subscribed  :P

Watching with bated breath for updates.  ;)
Don Teifke  :drive:
[smg id=8489]
"Life is tough.,, Life is even tougher if you're stupid."
-----John Wayne-----

Offline andrewhans

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2010, 02:01:47 PM »
this is a great thread and a very good read, keep the updates comeing

Current setup - Aluminum L33/Summit Turbo Stage 2, Billet 80mm turbo, single Walbro 450 and Dual AEM 400's, Bosch 210's
3060lb no driver
3240lb with driver

Offline V8-rx7

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2010, 03:06:28 PM »
If you are interested in reinforcing the factory swaybar mounts, I will be working on mine next week sometime. I plan to box the mounts with some plate and use a dimple die in the middle to keep it light and strong. 
86 RX7 Under reconstruction Twin Turbo LS1/T56 8.8 IRS  
93 RX7 MB Touring Stock Rotary with some bolt ons

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2010, 06:50:08 PM »
Thanks guys :)

I'll be interested to see how the mounts turn out.

We were thinking about welding in a bar between the two mounts up near the frame rail.  It should pretty much stop any deflection I think.  It should put the bar in tension when you go around a turn.  That should carry the load instead of the frame rail.  At least that is the guess.

Lots of shoulds in there.

Offline MPbdy

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2010, 12:49:49 AM »
Good news and bad news.

Good news - I have finally figured out why my car smells so odd.  Every time I would open the garage up there was a really unpleasant odor.  I figured it was something trapped in the car from the previous owner being a smoker. 

Bad news - It was the many year old gas in the gas tank.  It took me a while to draw the connection because the odor was so much stronger, but it definitely was the vapors leaking out.

Good news - The tank is out of the car and the gas is drained out.  The gas tank is no where near the car and everything can air out for a while.

Horrible news - The tank is severely rusted.  The car has been sitting since around 2005 I think.  I've been worried about this for a while.  I never thought it'd be this bad.

This has pretty much slammed the brakes on the momentum I had this past week.  The fuel system was really gonna be pretty quick to bust out and get out of the way.  Once the fuel system was done the rear cradle could go back in the car and it would be rolling again.






This is going to be pricey :(

Offline Santorican

Re: White 94 cali legal ls2 swap
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2010, 12:06:26 AM »
Excellent attention to detail in this build. I am definitely looking forward to reading this at least once a week. What school are you going to for your ME degree? I'm studying at a small college here in Melbourne called Florida Tech for my ME degree as well.