March 16, 2025, 02:42:52 PM

Author Topic: 4 channel ABS  (Read 39320 times)

Offline Turbotronic

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2021, 09:25:46 PM »
The AP1 unit is a full 4channel system. That alone is worth the upgrade. It also accepts the FD's VR style ABS sensors natively. It does not require any external inputs. That came in the AP2. It is just an ABS system. No yaw, steering wheel or accel sensors needed. I cannot speak to how it compares with the CSL firmware units. If the firmware could easily be tailored to the car it would be a no brainer.

^Fair enough.  I unfortunately (for my wallet) caved and bought a E46 M3 MK60 unit. Good Lord, these things got out of control expensive. It seems pretty much impossible to get one under $1000, particularly in the range that 3DM Motorsports recommends in there FAQ and unit ID guide. I saw one for $550, but it was from an '01. I have no idea whether, or not it needs the precharge pump. Also, maybe someone will have better luck with sourcing a unit from 3DM themselves. I was told they had none on hand with no visibility on when that could, or would change. If the AP1 units stay cheap enough, maybe I'll get one and do a back to back test. No promises, though.


Not sure the difference between the two units, but given that the bmw unit is looking for input from the yaw sensor, pressure sensors and the wheel speed sensors.... I think it will out perform the Honda unit, especially with the csl program.

I finished all my brake lines and wiring, going to bleed the system and power it up soon.  I managed to make all the lines, except for the rear lines one piece from abs unit to their location.  It wasn’t easy or perfect but everything you see is nice, the rest that’s hidden behind interior pieces are acceptable.... not perfect. 


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Cool. I look forward to seeing how you like it. You'll get to try yours before me. I've got a ways to go before my FD is back together.

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-under-hood-22/upgrading-02-04-abs-module-1191671/

I appreciate the link. It was informative.

Offline strickrothp

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2021, 03:15:53 AM »

^Fair enough.  I unfortunately (for my wallet) caved and bought a E46 M3 MK60 unit. Good Lord, these things got out of control expensive. It seems pretty much impossible to get one under $1000, particularly in the range that 3DM Motorsports recommends in there FAQ and unit ID guide. I saw one for $550, but it was from an '01. I have no idea whether, or not it needs the precharge pump. Also, maybe someone will have better luck with sourcing a unit from 3DM themselves. I was told they had none on hand with no visibility on when that could, or would change. If the AP1 units stay cheap enough, maybe I'll get one and do a back to back test. No promises, though.


Couldn't you have bought a regular E46 abs module and paid 3DM to reprogram it for you?

Offline Exidous

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2021, 01:20:47 PM »
An 01 would need the precharge. Pretty sure you can use an E46 and have it reprogrammed. Don't know if it has to be an ME though.
94 BB Sleeved gen IV LS7, MS3ProU with TC, RONIN 8.8 and LT's with custom 3.5"single to VAREX muffler.

Offline Turbotronic

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2021, 09:00:36 AM »

^Fair enough.  I unfortunately (for my wallet) caved and bought a E46 M3 MK60 unit. Good Lord, these things got out of control expensive. It seems pretty much impossible to get one under $1000, particularly in the range that 3DM Motorsports recommends in there FAQ and unit ID guide. I saw one for $550, but it was from an '01. I have no idea whether, or not it needs the precharge pump. Also, maybe someone will have better luck with sourcing a unit from 3DM themselves. I was told they had none on hand with no visibility on when that could, or would change. If the AP1 units stay cheap enough, maybe I'll get one and do a back to back test. No promises, though.


Couldn't you have bought a regular E46 abs module and paid 3DM to reprogram it for you?

^As far as I know, no, I could not have. Both 3DM's FAQ and a number of the BMW forums seem to think that re-flashing a standard E46 unit from say, a 330CI, is not possible. It could be the case that it can be re-flashed and that would be good information to put out there, if true. Even if it's not re-flashable, once this never ending build gets to a phase where I can do performance testing, I will test it. In regard to that, I'd also like to see what happens if I try to run a non-M unit in standalone configuration as well. It'd be interesting to see how big the difference is between the two. I'd be willing to bet that for 95% of people considering this mod would be more than satisfied with a standard non-M unit. That comparison happening is contingent on regular E46 units staying under $200, though.

An 01 would need the precharge. Pretty sure you can use an E46 and have it reprogrammed. Don't know if it has to be an ME though.

Yeah, that is why I passed on it. Mine came out of an '03 according to the ad. The part number on the computer portion of the module checks out so I'm not worried. It also came with all the sensors and came with all the plugs with enough a pigtail to make my own harness.

Offline paul_3rdgen

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #124 on: June 10, 2021, 09:27:27 AM »
The best person to talk to about the bmw abs unit is Doug Wardell, he’s the owner of racing harnesses, he is the guy who builds the harnesses for 3dm.  And he does the reprogramming from e46 m3 to csl.   He knows his stuff, 3dm is just the distributor.  I purchased everything through Doug.


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93 RX7 R1 500rwhp
LS2, H/C combo... ARE drysump
Race Logic traction Control and 4 wheel Stoptech BBK
3.73 gears installed in the stock diff  :o

Offline wtfx100

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2021, 05:33:27 PM »
Imo 3 channel to 4 channel isn't that much of an upgrade but 2 to 3 is night and day.

Offline paul_3rdgen

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2021, 07:17:24 PM »
Your right but the 93 Mazda abs is nothing to brag about…. It’s intrusive and the modulation of it sucks.  The bmw e46 m3 abs is truly amazing!!  I’ve driven and been a passenger in an e46 track car and the stopping power was incredible. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
93 RX7 R1 500rwhp
LS2, H/C combo... ARE drysump
Race Logic traction Control and 4 wheel Stoptech BBK
3.73 gears installed in the stock diff  :o

Offline paul_3rdgen

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #127 on: July 07, 2021, 09:01:06 PM »
I’m officially finished the install!  Test drive will happen shortly.   Let the fun begin. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
93 RX7 R1 500rwhp
LS2, H/C combo... ARE drysump
Race Logic traction Control and 4 wheel Stoptech BBK
3.73 gears installed in the stock diff  :o

Offline MPbdy

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #128 on: July 07, 2021, 11:49:47 PM »
Hell yeah! Nice

Offline paul_3rdgen

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #129 on: July 29, 2021, 12:20:10 PM »
Sorry for the lack of updates.  Ran into a problem with the front sensor mounts…. Wasn’t reading correctly.  Made an aluminum mount to help.  And I ordered front left and right e46 abs sensors.  Had to use left on right side and right on left side. I was trying to use rear sensors but it didn’t work out.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
93 RX7 R1 500rwhp
LS2, H/C combo... ARE drysump
Race Logic traction Control and 4 wheel Stoptech BBK
3.73 gears installed in the stock diff  :o

Offline MPbdy

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #130 on: July 29, 2021, 12:47:11 PM »
How are you liking the Ohlins?

Offline paul_3rdgen

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #131 on: July 29, 2021, 01:25:54 PM »
The few test drives, I’m liking them.  Smoother ride…. My track day is booked for August 7th.  It’s my test and tune day.  Hopefully I’ll get everything worked out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
93 RX7 R1 500rwhp
LS2, H/C combo... ARE drysump
Race Logic traction Control and 4 wheel Stoptech BBK
3.73 gears installed in the stock diff  :o

Offline Sabre002

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #132 on: August 04, 2021, 04:52:02 PM »
Don't know if anyone had seen this before but here's a great argument for ditching the stock ABS.



I have this conversation a lot about OEM ABS systems in race cars and I have even talked to Randy about this.  I'm going to politely disagree with the assessment of "Ice Mode"  just to prevent any confusion on this. 

Ice mode is not a function that has been programmed in to the units I deal with in the Mazda realm.  We race the NC & ND MX-5 currently and deal with this theory.  This is one of the major considerations for spec brake pads front and rear in our series cars.  There are a few major reason this can happen and steps that can be taken to prevent it as well. 

Pad selection is a major consideration with the compounds front to rear.  Generally speaking the farther apart the pad compounds are front to rear the more sensitive the system will be as it see's the initial bite and the deceleration rates differ.  What the system does is calculate the deceleration of the wheel with the reluctor wheel and referenced the programming for that.  It is then compared to all the other wheels and if possible a VSS signal (Some don't use a VSS that is separate).   

Tire selection can come into play here also and can mask a lot of these symptoms.  Most of the time the drivers don't notice at a novice level.  So tuning the pads and the tires to the ABS becomes two tuning tools to consider.  Modern ABS systems are programmed down to the OEM equipment tread block design of the tires this is how much detail goes into it. 

Lastly we have driver inputs that effect the system this can be as simple as a rumble strip, dropping a tire, hitting sand on the track or simply overdriving the corner and thinking I have ABS it will save me.  The last think to consider from a driver input stand point from data and experience is how you apply initial pressure to the pedal with an ABS system.  The drivers that slap the pedal will have more issues then drivers that apply firm even pressure.  This is due to the shock loading of the friction circle.   https://www.jonathangoring.com/understanding-friction-circles/




The key take ways for this are to think of brakes more dynamically than a race compounds and adjusting bias when it comes to ABS.  Keeping the compounds close in friction front to rear to match wheel deceleration rates with the tire being used will help fine tune this.  Not thinking ABS is the end all be all fail safe to pull you out of a situation that was clearly drive error and over driving the corner is another.

For example this is the pads we use on the MX-5's

Front pads - https://www.pagidracing.com/en/products/racing-brake-pads/product-family-rst/rst-3.html


Rear pads - https://www.pagidracing.com/en/products/racing-brake-pads/product-family-rs/rs-44.html


It was popular to use the RX-8 ABS in the MX-5 race cars, this would also be a good swap option for the FD.  This system just needs power, ground and wheel speed signals to work as a standalone unit and it rivals the BMW programming to from what we have seen.  There is a built in pressure sensor to use for driver inputs and training.  This is an important sensor when it comes to changing friction levels on the tires and brake pads too. 
Josh
Manager Business Development, Mazda Motorsports
For info on how to join the Mazda Motorsports Team Support Program Email me.
Jsmit295@mazdausa.com

Offline paul_3rdgen

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #133 on: August 04, 2021, 06:20:46 PM »
Where were you a year ago.  Lol.  I’m finished installing, checked everything with my scanner.  The real test will be this weekend at the track.   Really hoping it doesn’t rain, my tires suck in the rain.  I need new tires but since I haven’t had much time this season I decided to wait on tires.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
93 RX7 R1 500rwhp
LS2, H/C combo... ARE drysump
Race Logic traction Control and 4 wheel Stoptech BBK
3.73 gears installed in the stock diff  :o

Offline Sabre002

Re: 4 channel ABS
« Reply #134 on: August 04, 2021, 08:18:42 PM »
Sorry Paul,  you can always call me you know it’s work related now lol.

904-426-8757
Josh
Manager Business Development, Mazda Motorsports
For info on how to join the Mazda Motorsports Team Support Program Email me.
Jsmit295@mazdausa.com