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Author Topic: Something different - CNC milling machine build  (Read 11997 times)

Offline Dvous

Something different - CNC milling machine build
« on: February 21, 2017, 08:20:01 PM »
So I figured a lot of guys here would probably find this interesting.  The backstory is I had a manual bridgeport before but wanted a bigger CNC mill so I started looking around for a used prototrak or something similar to replace my manual bridgy.  After looking on and off for about a year I happened upon a 1975 Series I BP mill that was converted with a Mitutoyo Millstar III CNC setup about 10 years ago.  It was missing the controller itself but came with all the mounts/hardware, servo motors, ground ball-screws and nuts on all 3 axis, all the cables, and the driver card portion of the control system.  After talking with the owner and seeing some pictures I found that the machine was in AWESOME condition and was never in a commercial environment, only personal use since new.  The guy was located in the middle of VT so I made plans to shoot up and grab the thing the following weekend, as It turned out I couldn't have picked a worse time to go get the thing...here is a pic from the ride up:
[attachimg=1]

But I managed to get it loaded (his friend had a 4x4 tractor hooked up and waiting to drop it on my trailer).  And got it back home to CT (oddly enough back to its home too, I live about 15 miles from the original factory in Bridgeport, CT). 
[attachimg=2]

To unload it I backed the trailer into my garage (reason I rented a uhaul, my car trailer wont fit in my garage) and hoist the BP off the trailer:
[attachimg=3]

Next I picked it up with an engine hoist and put it in its final resting place
[attachimg=4]

The first problem is that I dont have 220V 3-phase in my garage.  You have two choices really to convert single phase to 3 phase: a phase converter which are serious $$ for good ones, or a Variable Frequency Driver which not only converts single to 3 phase but also can vary frequency (which means speed!) and control on/off, motor direction, e-stop, etc.  So this was a no brainer for me since varying frequency to change speed means no changing belts and have infinite speed control.  I bought a Lapond VFD from amazon and it works perfect:
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
The Mount for it is crooked and hacked because ill be setting it up with remote inputs from my CNC controller in the future and mounting it in a box, but for now it made it so I can run the machine manually.


'93 fd~black/orange, 5.3l, t56, 7875, HP efi, 4 pt, etc
'63 F250~95' F350 frame, D60, 12valve, zf 5spd, 35's
'51 Willys M38~350/4spd, otherwise all original
'72 FJ40 landcruiser
'03 2500hd duramax~ppe stg 5 trans, efilive tunes, etc, 600hp 1000 ft lbs - daily
Quote
Once you drive a V8 RX7 you'll feel like a friggin Viking that just pillaged a village.
- Speedfab

Offline Dvous

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2017, 08:36:21 PM »
So now that I had the machine up and running manually it was time to decide how I wanted to setup the controller.  The first question is Servo or Stepper? Steppers are easier because they don't require any encoder feedback, but you can miss steps and they are generally lower performing and less accurate.  On the other hand my machine came with matched commercial quality Glentek Servo motors (worth about $1k a piece), so I decided to run the original servo's.  Next I needed to decide what I wanted for encoders.  The machine came with Linear encoders on the X and Y axis and a rotary encoder on the Z axis.  The Linear encoders are basically glass scales that read true position of the table to the control system.  Linear encoders are really better because they measure the actual movement of the part, so backlash and belt play don't make a difference.  Rotary encoders measure shaft rotation within the motor and can't account for backlash or other losses (keep in mind this machine has less than .001 backlash with the ball screw setup).  I decided to switch to rotary encoders since the linear encoders were pretty shot and its hard to get the system control loop tuned correctly with linear encoders, I.E. not for beginners.  I may switch back to new linear encoders later.

Next I needed to decide on a hardware source.  I had been going back and fourth with Arturo at CNC4PC.com for a while and he was great at answering all my stupid questions so I figured the least I could do was give him my business haha.  So first and foremost is the software and this portion I was already decided on: Mach4, I used it on a tormach CNC mill at a place I used to work and loved it as a hobby platform.  Next on the list is the motion controller (this is what deciphers the signals given from the control software), for this I chose the Ethernet Smooth Stepper made by warp9.  I chose the ESS motion controller for two major reasons:
1) ethernet cables everywhere makes this very simple!
2) ethernet cables are much less prone to noise interference than USB cables.

Once the motion controller was chosen I needed a breakout board.  For the BOB you can literally go simple to insanely complex, I bought a pretty capable once made by CNC4PC called a C62 board.  The C62 connects directly to the ESS motion controller and offers a myriad of options and I/O's i'll get into later.  Two big things about it though.
1) It allows my VFD to easily be integrated into the system.
2) It is also completely ethernet based  ;)

Finally I could get the heart of the system which are the Servo Control Drivers.  I had a fair amount of choices for this including: Gecko drives (very popular, but limited), Kelling drives (good, but chinese), Viper Drives (very good, but poor support), and CNCdrives.  I chose the CNC drives DG4S-16035 units because they could run my high voltage motors (160 VDC max) as well as a couple other reasons.
1) they'll out perform all the others.
2) they have killer support.
3) yes, that's right, ethernet based!

So with the framework decided on I put together all the ancillary parts and came up with the following parts list:

- RJ45 limit switch assembly
- 180V braking circuit boards X3
- DG4S programming stick
- Ethernet Smooth Stepper motion controller
- DG4S-16035 DC servo drive X3
- RJ45 connector board for DG4S X3
- AMT102v Encoder X3
- C62 breakout board
- Dual Relay Board
- 12vdc power supply
- Mach4 license
- Basic desktop computer
- Flat screen monitor
- Imach Pendant for Mach4 control
- Lots of Cat6 cables  ;)

So to start I needed to pull the back of the X and Y motors and see whats going on.  What you see in the pics is a tachometer setup which is obviously used to feedback motor speed with the linear encoders:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]

So I started taking it off and realized that I couldn't just add a rotary encoder because of the construction of the shaft.
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]

So I designed and 3d printed a couple adapter plates in ABS:
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]

These encoders are AMT102V encoders and are fairly simple but very accurate, they have a dip switch setup to adjust how many counts per rotation you want.  I started at 1000.
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]

Next I wired up the Line Driver converters from CNC4PC.com.  These basically adapt the pinout from the encoder to an RJ45 cable for use with the drivers I bought.
[attachimg=9]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 08:59:26 PM by Dvous »
'93 fd~black/orange, 5.3l, t56, 7875, HP efi, 4 pt, etc
'63 F250~95' F350 frame, D60, 12valve, zf 5spd, 35's
'51 Willys M38~350/4spd, otherwise all original
'72 FJ40 landcruiser
'03 2500hd duramax~ppe stg 5 trans, efilive tunes, etc, 600hp 1000 ft lbs - daily
Quote
Once you drive a V8 RX7 you'll feel like a friggin Viking that just pillaged a village.
- Speedfab

Offline Dvous

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 08:40:31 PM »
Then I started stuffing all this stuff under the back cover of the motor...what a pain in the ass!
[attachimg=1]

Next I bored a 1 inch hole in the back cover of the motor's:
[attachimg=2]

And installed an ethernet bulkhead into the cover
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]

'93 fd~black/orange, 5.3l, t56, 7875, HP efi, 4 pt, etc
'63 F250~95' F350 frame, D60, 12valve, zf 5spd, 35's
'51 Willys M38~350/4spd, otherwise all original
'72 FJ40 landcruiser
'03 2500hd duramax~ppe stg 5 trans, efilive tunes, etc, 600hp 1000 ft lbs - daily
Quote
Once you drive a V8 RX7 you'll feel like a friggin Viking that just pillaged a village.
- Speedfab

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2017, 09:42:25 PM »
Dude, dude, dude...   this is fantastic.

If you don't mind sharing...  what does something like this cost to put together?   I'm constantly debating on buying/retrofitting an old mill that size or just getting a desktop mini-CNC.   I have access to 3D Printing and I don't suck at electronics...
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline freeskier7791

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2017, 09:46:53 PM »
Really cool project.  I am a big fan of ethernet cables for all the signal transfer.  Thats cool the bridgy was never used commercially.  Looking forward to more progress

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

https://www.youtube.com/thedriftingdad
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL Drift Car

CCVT

Offline Dvous

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2017, 10:06:23 PM »
Dude, dude, dude...   this is fantastic.

If you don't mind sharing...  what does something like this cost to put together?   I'm constantly debating on buying/retrofitting an old mill that size or just getting a desktop mini-CNC.   I have access to 3D Printing and I don't suck at electronics...

I'll put together a full price list for you, I'm looking at around $3k once its all said and done.  But I got the BP for $1200, which is highway robbery...I basically bought the ground ball screws and got a BP and Mitutoyo CNC setup for free.  I believe just the Mitutoyo Millstar III setup cost a little over $20k new, and that's without a BP to put it on  :o.
'93 fd~black/orange, 5.3l, t56, 7875, HP efi, 4 pt, etc
'63 F250~95' F350 frame, D60, 12valve, zf 5spd, 35's
'51 Willys M38~350/4spd, otherwise all original
'72 FJ40 landcruiser
'03 2500hd duramax~ppe stg 5 trans, efilive tunes, etc, 600hp 1000 ft lbs - daily
Quote
Once you drive a V8 RX7 you'll feel like a friggin Viking that just pillaged a village.
- Speedfab

Offline freeskier7791

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 10:16:18 AM »
Major steal there!  A good BP by itself is at least that usually twice as much
https://www.youtube.com/thedriftingdad
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL Drift Car

CCVT

Offline frijolee

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 02:04:05 PM »
Holy crap that's a deal.  Please keep the chatter going on the various options you didn't do as well as why you picked what you did.
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline BLKMGK

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 06:48:16 PM »
Very jealous and really appreciate the sharing!

Offline Dvous

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 08:52:26 PM »
Holy crap that's a deal.  Please keep the chatter going on the various options you didn't do as well as why you picked what you did.

Will do, to be fair machining equipment is considerably cheaper here than most of the country from what I'm told.  We've got job shops on every street corner either closing or just removing surplus.  Also, you can get this stuff surprisingly cheap from private owners if you have the means to remove it...Lots of people don't have the mindset or the means to get something like a knee mill out of a basement, for example.  So my machine would have been double or triple the price if it came out of a shop with a loading dock and a forklift.  I had to drive to east bumfuck VT, up a one way dirt road up the side of a mountain and drag it out of a rear facing garage...The market for people willing to do that is small and kills the price.

For those of you interested in a project like this (Blake specifically) I'd STRONGLY suggest finding an existing CNC with a trashed controller to rebuild.  Prototraks are fantastic but are often 2 axis only, Lagun CNC knee mills are great, the mitutoyo conversions like mine are awesome but rare, original BP boss series machines are a great start as long as you get a later one with servo motors.  I say this because by the time you buy good ball screws/nuts, motors, mounts, controller, cables, computer, software you'll be getting to the point that you could buy an older haas or fadal (etc.) VMC. 

Also, I'm way further ahead in this build then where I left off...Just ran out of time downsizing pics and writing lol.  I'll update this weekend.
'93 fd~black/orange, 5.3l, t56, 7875, HP efi, 4 pt, etc
'63 F250~95' F350 frame, D60, 12valve, zf 5spd, 35's
'51 Willys M38~350/4spd, otherwise all original
'72 FJ40 landcruiser
'03 2500hd duramax~ppe stg 5 trans, efilive tunes, etc, 600hp 1000 ft lbs - daily
Quote
Once you drive a V8 RX7 you'll feel like a friggin Viking that just pillaged a village.
- Speedfab

Offline halfspec

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 09:55:59 AM »
Subscribed

Nice build. Specifically impressed by the very nice 3D printed parts you nonchalantly threw into the mix. Please feel free to do deeper in that area as you'd have at least one very interested reader ;)
I've got a nicely calibrated prusa i3 that's optimized for ABS and I've been using openscad to create simple parts. I've bet on openscad as being able to take me as far as I need to go with self designed 3D printed parts, but I haven't invested enough time that it would be difficult to switch platforms if the cost/benefit ratio is right.

Lane

Offline frijolee

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2017, 12:39:37 PM »
So if you're showing up to evaluate a used mill, what are you looking for?  What kind of test cuts would you run to be able to verify whether the table was loose or sloppy?  What makes something a "knee mill"?

Apologies but it looks we're going to bury you in questions before you get back to the proper write up...   :yay: 
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline freeskier7791

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2017, 02:06:33 PM »
So if you're showing up to evaluate a used mill, what are you looking for?  What kind of test cuts would you run to be able to verify whether the table was loose or sloppy?  What makes something a "knee mill"?

Apologies but it looks we're going to bury you in questions before you get back to the proper write up...   :yay:

I have a little experience on this topic, there are pieces called the gibbs and ways that make the track that the table runs on.  they can be adjusted with a screw to take up any slack and need constant lubrication to prevent wear.  You can use an edge finder and run the table along the x and y axes to determine if the table tracks straight, you can also physically try to move the table side to side to see any play.  You could also physically check to see if there is more adjustment in the gibbs.

I believe a knee mill is one that will allow the table to move up and down not just the milling head.
https://www.youtube.com/thedriftingdad
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL Drift Car

CCVT

Offline Dvous

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2017, 09:43:08 PM »
So if you're showing up to evaluate a used mill, what are you looking for?  What kind of test cuts would you run to be able to verify whether the table was loose or sloppy?  What makes something a "knee mill"?

Apologies but it looks we're going to bury you in questions before you get back to the proper write up...   :yay:

No apologies necessary, everyone that has asked questions or commented on this build thread thus far has helped me with my car in the past.

With that said, allow me to break down most of what you need to know to buy one of these things:

Basics:

A knee mill is a machine that allows the table to be moved separately from the spindle.  The table moves up and down 12-15" and the spindle will travel 5.5" on most BP's.  This way you can accommodate taller work pieces without added stress on the spindle.

BP's are most common and preferential to most people.  However, lots of very good clones exist and I wouldn't hesitate to buy most of them.  Some of these include: Supermax, Lagun, Wells-index, Acer, and quite a few others...I'd suggest researching any clones you look at.  With that said, I would stick with BP's if possible.

Targeting a machine:

1) Decide if you want a Series I machine or a Series II.  Ill make this simple for you, a series I is about 2k lbs, a series II is double that.  The extra mass is nice for heavy jobs but it amplifies the inability to move the machine tenfold.
2) you're going to want a "J head" equipped machine, the older M-heads are good machines but lack the support that J-heads get and they aren't nearly as robust.  The 2J head is also available on machines newer than 1975-ish, this would give you variable speed without changing belts (BIG ADVANTAGE).  Mine is a basic J-head machine.
3) you want a Dovetail column, basically the column that the head is mounted to can move in and out (in the Y direction with respect to the table axis).  The other option is a round ram machine and they aren't nearly as stable.  Also, you'll probably never move it anyway to the beefier the better!
4) Y-axis travel, older machines had 9 inches, newer machines have 12.  By newer I mean 1972 or so and newer.  This is easily distinguishable by the serial number which is stamped on the Y-axis way cover.  Plenty of people don't even realize it exists because you have to move the table all the way back in the Y direction to see it.  These number always start with BR, a 12" travel machine will have BR/12 in the beginning (its actually BR over 12, like a fraction, not a forward slash lol)

EDIT: I'm sorry, its 12/BR, and here's a pic for reference:
[attachimg=3]

5) They're available with 32",36",42",46" tables.  The bigger the better, BUT the 46" table puts a lot of stress on the ways when they're extended all the way and they can beat up on the gibs.  Mine is a 42", just for size comparison.
6) Nice things to looks for: X-axis power feed. One shot oiling system, DIGITAL READOUTS!, CNC setup  :D, etc

Inspection:

Once you've found what your looking for and you've decided to take a look:

1) Head-
Run the machine and listen for any grinding noises, a little humming is fine from the spindle bearings.  These machines have little oil caps on the right side of the head (when your facing the front) lift them up and check for oil, if it has oil someone was clearly taking care of it.  Run the spindle down while the machine is running and make sure the noise never changes. 

Also check the auto-feed feature.  On the left side of the head (again, when your facing it) are the controls for auto down feed.  This is for tapping or drilling cycles and is super useful.  Unfortunately, a lot of people are rough on the system and mangle the gears that run it, make sure you get a demonstration of how it works and THAT it works.

2) Table/Ways-
Like Freeskier said, shake the table back and fourth...that's always a good start.  The table runs in ways and the ways have gibs pressing on them, the gibs are adjustable but they can be used to fool you when your purchasing.  What you're looking for are good scrape marks all the way up and down all the ways like shown here:
[attachimg=2]
If you can find a machine with chrome ways that's even better, but not a deal breaker.  Move the table to all the extents of its travel and look for scrape marks.  Remember, these machines are usually used right in the middle of the travel area.  If you move the table and it starts getting harder to move toward the ends of travel that's likely because the center is worn and someone adjusted the gibs to compensate, the ends aren't worn so the gibs get too tight when you move away from the worn area.  As far as the knee movement, they're almost all worn.  The knee is heavy and beats up on the ways for it pretty hard, you wont be using the knee to get z-axis movement while machine 99 times our of 100 anyway, so its no big deal...just move it to where you need it and lock it down.  BUT, certainly move the knee all the way up and down to make sure it travels okay...might way to save your arm strength for that, you've got to spin the handle around about 50,000 times to get full travel haha.
The table itself is a non issue, if its rusty then stone it down and wipe it with some wd40.  Just make sure no chunks are missing from where some asshat tightened something down wayyyy to much.  If its got nice scrape marks like mine, hooray for you!, that's probably a well kept machine.
Check for any signs of GREASE on the ways or around the zirks.  Those look like grease zirks but they are for way oil (Vactra 2 is what I use), not grease.

3) Leadscrews-
ALWAYS check the backlash on the machine, most people who own these have dial indicators and a magnetic base for machining work but if they don't then you should bring one and measure the backlash.  Just stick the base to the table, zero out the indicator on the spindle and move the handle some increment (.050, for example) and check to see how much the indicator actually moves.  Some backlash is fine, but it gets out of control sometimes.  If the machine has Digital readouts (DRO's), then screw it, you'll never machine off the handle increments anyway.  If you can find one with ballscrews (usually only on CNC machines) then that's cool because they'll have no backlash, but keep in mind that with no backlash the tool pressure can sometimes cause the axis to walk a bit unless you lock down the axis or hold the handle the whole time.

That's all I can think of right now, I'll probably come up with a couple more things later.  If Anyone on this forum has questions about BP's or needs some assistance buying one please feel free to PM me or post here.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 09:48:21 PM by Dvous »
'93 fd~black/orange, 5.3l, t56, 7875, HP efi, 4 pt, etc
'63 F250~95' F350 frame, D60, 12valve, zf 5spd, 35's
'51 Willys M38~350/4spd, otherwise all original
'72 FJ40 landcruiser
'03 2500hd duramax~ppe stg 5 trans, efilive tunes, etc, 600hp 1000 ft lbs - daily
Quote
Once you drive a V8 RX7 you'll feel like a friggin Viking that just pillaged a village.
- Speedfab

Offline Dvous

Re: Something different - CNC milling machine build
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2017, 09:52:53 PM »
Subscribed

Nice build. Specifically impressed by the very nice 3D printed parts you nonchalantly threw into the mix. Please feel free to do deeper in that area as you'd have at least one very interested reader ;)
I've got a nicely calibrated prusa i3 that's optimized for ABS and I've been using openscad to create simple parts. I've bet on openscad as being able to take me as far as I need to go with self designed 3D printed parts, but I haven't invested enough time that it would be difficult to switch platforms if the cost/benefit ratio is right.

Lane

I actually printed those at work on a Stratasys Dimension machine.  No more printed parts on this project (yet), but  any questions you might have about 3d printing I'd be happy to try and answer.  I did a TON of design for 3d printing fixtures and tools at my old job.  I actually printed some milling fixtures with good success and a metric shitload of assembly related fixtures and tools.
'93 fd~black/orange, 5.3l, t56, 7875, HP efi, 4 pt, etc
'63 F250~95' F350 frame, D60, 12valve, zf 5spd, 35's
'51 Willys M38~350/4spd, otherwise all original
'72 FJ40 landcruiser
'03 2500hd duramax~ppe stg 5 trans, efilive tunes, etc, 600hp 1000 ft lbs - daily
Quote
Once you drive a V8 RX7 you'll feel like a friggin Viking that just pillaged a village.
- Speedfab