Ronin service and quality issues

[carlosmithttt]

Hey guys.  Long time lurker and fc v8 track rat owner. Wanted the hives opinion on a situation that is going on.  I work with Josh (sabre002) at panic motorsports and he suggested that this may be the best unbiased opinion so here goes.

I decided to add some downforce to the ugly Lil beastie and ordered a fiberglass composite wing from Ronin.  I had been in contact with Joel concerning the purchase and he was expecting the order despite being out of country.

First issue was that he was not around to rivet the brackets on to the foil so he would instruct a "cohort" to do it.  I offered to do it if he would just send the parts.  All that we do here for prepping and building track toys, riveting a wing together is in the slam dunk department for me.  His next email told me that his cohort had riveted on the brackets backwards and he would now be sending me a new wing for me to assemble.  (His words were, "ahh..  the joys of one off bad ass fab work heh?")  No problem I said.  Didn't even ask for money off, because I didn't feel like it was warranted.

I got an intriguing email the day the wing was supposed to arrive from Joel saying that his cohort really wanted to make things right but that was the last wing they had.  He would see about working with me on price.  I decided to hold off a response until I had seen the thing as I was a little confused.  Here are the pics... warning i suck at this so here it goes

high spots and extra resin


someone used a grinder to remove the mold line


the two halves of the wing are not bonded together completely


they drilled into the top of the wing when removing the incorrectly installed brackets


a big one.  this would require a good bit of work.  its a big enough egg to alter air flow


mounts were bent the wrong way when they were installed backwards and subsequently cracked






and a vid of my new expensive maraca

http://vid464.photobucket.com/albums/rr9/carlosmithttt/Mobile%20Uploads/20160518_085240_zpsvv2iomyi.mp4

i called and emailed him.  phone conversation was odd.....Joel is very interested in using awe inspiring words like fabricate and engineer.  He is using them to explain to someone who does it on a daily basis.  He was alluding to the fact that my expectations of a fiberglass part were too high, despite not seeing the wing himself.  I offered to give them one more shot and pay more for the CF wing since they did not have anymore frp ones.  I let him know i would send him pics today.  I did and he emailed me back.  I would really like to share that email so nothing gets lost in translation.  Basically it says its par for the course and the thing is structurally sound.  Hes offering 75 bucks for 1 hour of body labor for these "cosmetic issues." My response was less than positive. 

Am I asking too much here? I know how i can be sometimes but this seems like a pretty crappy way of spending 1200 bucks.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Carlos 

[carlosmithttt]

ahhh screw it.  here is his email response

Hi Carlos,

Thank you for taking the time to snap some pictures.  I can see from what you sent why you are concerned.  Based upon what I see, I do have every confidence that the wing you have is structurally sound but I may be looking at things a little differently knowing all the steps that go into the construction.  As such, I thought a little background might be helpful to you in selecting how to proceed.

1) Bond line:  When the halves of the wing are placed back in the mold to be bonded there's always a touch of resin that leaks out of the joint.  It won't stick to the waxed A-surface of the part, hence it comes off easily.  More-over, it's supposed to come off easily since you have to sand the entire surface of the wing before you can paint (else the paint won't stick either).  There is a substantial build of glass up at the joint so with a small effort you can have both seams and be ready for paint if you so choose.  I believe going forward we will knock off the edge ourselves to avoid concern by customers since this transaction clearly highlighted the potential of that. I can assure you that what you are seeing is not part of the mold and will be present on any similar fiberglass construction (but may or may not be removed prior to shipment, I've seen it both ways).

2) Gel coat is brittle and will start to exhibit surface/spider cracking long before the resin/fiber matrix receives damage.  However, the fine lines you highlighted around rivets and on the opposite skin are obviously not as intended.  I assume this occurred when the mounts were riveted backwards as noted (which is our error and created a cosmetic issue).  We use massively oversized rivets, partly because we want there to be no question as to the integrity of the joint.  Likewise it appears that during drilling the bit touched the inner skin but did not puncture.  Again cosmetic issue, but will not affect functionality.

3) The loose rivet head could be removed via a hole in the end of wing.  That would drive me nuts too, but all I can do from here is apologize.

4)  A few of my cohorts took your comments about ebay pricing as a bit of a personal insult.  I understand the sentiment you were going for and I believe we understood each other when we spoke on the phone, however you should know that when we sell our mounts separately they go for $200 by themselves. You can't get something that replicates the exact curvature of the FC decklid and places the load in the correct place with an ebay universal wing.  Most of the time you can't even get a wing that will allow the hatch to open at the $300 pricepoint you mentioned.  It also won't set the wing at the correct height to maximize visibility and airflow, I can almost guarantee the laminate schedule will be sub-par.  It's just frustrating to hear when there's actually so little margin in the part given how we built them.  Anyways, I thought you should know.

So after some discussion, here are the choices we can offer:

1) since there clearly are cosmetic issues, for which we are at fault, I can offer you a partial refund of $75 (basically priced to cover the equivalent of an hour of a body shop's time).
2) send it back, we give you a full refund (no harm, no foul, and also no restocking fee since there are quality issues associated ).
3) upgrade you to carbon at the cost delta.  We do not think a freebie upgrade is appropriate given we believe some of your concerns would be true of most custom fiberglass fabrication.  I would want to take pictures of the carbon wing in advance so you know exactly what you'd be getting and avoid any discrepancy with expectations.  We would have you assemble yourself per request.

As noted, these are not mass produced parts and are made in the USA one at a time rather than via mass production.  That simply makes them more expensive.  If you'd like to try sanding on the seam lines and see what you think with them cleaned up that's fine and will not be taken to affect the offer above (barring egregious damage, which I trust you not to do).

Let me know how you'd like to go forward.

Regards,
Joel Payne


The ebay thing he is referring to is when i called it an Ebay quality wing.  I stand behind that statement.

[carlosmithttt]

my response...i could have been nicer but everything that was said is true

The picture showing the razor blade going in to where the 2 halves of your wing are separating is definitely not structurely sound in my opinion.  I asked my wife.  She agrees.  She does insurance for a living.  While it sounds like I am being hard on you guys I am only speaking to the guy that spoke of "one off bad ass fabrication".  I feel like the fab word and engineering word gets thrown around alot these days.  You guys copied a known design and your claiming to improve upon it.  This thing is failing in the exact place you told me it wouldnt. I ran a body shop chain for a decade before I own the business I have now that allows me to also work for panic motorsports. 75 dollars for the amount of work alone to fix where your guys tried to poke through the top with a drill bit or rivets is not even close to being worth my time.  I hope your guys took my comment to heart.  I would pay 200 for the brackets.  I would not pay 100 bucks for the foil as it sits.  Hell I have the skill 10 times over to make that thing right.  I didn't pay you guys that kind of money for me to do that.  I even offered to pay you full list for the carbon already but I am now changing my mind.

After reading your bullet points I realize that we will never be on the same plane regarding quality of product and service.  On the phone last night you acted like you are doing the community a service by producing this stuff.  I agree.....but not at this quality level.  Having been in the body shop business for a long time, I have seen countless fiberglass parts come my way.  I have made my own.

The excess resin should get pressed out of the sides of a mold.  What your seeing is the result of a tired mold, bad process, or something else I'm not seeing since I'm not there.  I know what I'm looking at and don't need you to tell me how to do composite work as I have done my fair share both good and bad over the years.

  Because of my experience with various suspension designs I would still like the camber adjustment kit.  The current one on the car is not the best way of correcting this problem. Please refund me the difference between the wing and the kit. Please send me a FedEx return authorization at your convenience.  Please send out the adjustment kit when available. Thank you in advance.

Sincerely

Carlos

[Sabre002]

At this point I feel bad for pushing my friend and co-worker to buy this wing.  After hearing of the phone conversation and now seeing the email correspondence, I cannot believe this is how any company's customer service would be handled. 

First off - admit that this is not how every composite wing is sent out.  You said yourself in the email below that it has several different "cosmetic" issues.  It'd raise a pretty large red flag for me if every one of my products had such significant flaws and still made it to the customer.  Second - you need to stop making it sound like the customer has no clue what they are talking about when they have a complaint of a part that you did not even see before shipping (not to mention, this customer is no stranger to body work, as that was his full time job for 10+ years previous to his current position).  Lastly - this composite wing is not engineered in nearly as superior of a manner that you clearly see. It is, very obviously, still susceptible to cosmetic flaws, and not exempt from any structural imperfections. 

Speaking of structural imperfections, the wing sounds like a rain stick because it has so many loose parts floating around inside it - yet we are to believe it is still cosmetic flaws only?  Metal inside a composite does not act as abrasive and weaken a part such as this?  What if this causes a failure on track?  Never mind the drill bit going so far into the wing it almost punched through the other side.  That is beyond a cosmetic flaw, as it changes the entire shape of the wing.  Also, with all of your talk of the "corrected" bonding issues at the seam, why is it we can fit anything, razorblade or otherwise, into the crack at said seam? 

I'm sorry to be harsh, but you've provided a sub-par product.  Would you have done the same for someone like me, who's well known on this forum, and who you'd be sure to hear back from?

#frijolee

[al0389]

Let's get one thing straight! You've got this very confused!

Maracas need more beads inside to make it a musical instrument. I give it 2/10 would not buy, or use, as a musical instrument...


Also, that should have never been shipped out. Too many cracks in the fiberglass. I understand some cracking near the rivets may happen, even after shipping/handling/flex but not the ones where the drill shot through. As for resin leakage, fine, were not perfect, let whoever paints it level it down.  Those two haves will come apart eventually, they aren't bonded properly.

I was once certified marine composites fabricator. I've rebuilt/repaired sections of ship hulls and assembled custom yacht counters and fixtures. Resin is a very brittle thing, but if you fuck her gently, she won't crack.

[Tictakman]

I wouldnt be happy with that quality of a new product.

[wickedrx7]

Send the wing back, get a refund and go buy something off eBay. Delete the thread.

[wickedrx7]

At this point I feel bad for pushing my friend and co-worker to buy this wing.  After hearing of the phone conversation and now seeing the email correspondence, I cannot believe this is how any company's customer service would be handled. 

First off - admit that this is not how every composite wing is sent out.  You said yourself in the email below that it has several different "cosmetic" issues.  It'd raise a pretty large red flag for me if every one of my products had such significant flaws and still made it to the customer.  Second - you need to stop making it sound like the customer has no clue what they are talking about when they have a complaint of a part that you did not even see before shipping (not to mention, this customer is no stranger to body work, as that was his full time job for 10+ years previous to his current position).  Lastly - this composite wing is not engineered in nearly as superior of a manner that you clearly see. It is, very obviously, still susceptible to cosmetic flaws, and not exempt from any structural imperfections. 

Speaking of structural imperfections, the wing sounds like a rain stick because it has so many loose parts floating around inside it - yet we are to believe it is still cosmetic flaws only?  Metal inside a composite does not act as abrasive and weaken a part such as this?  What if this causes a failure on track?  Never mind the drill bit going so far into the wing it almost punched through the other side.  That is beyond a cosmetic flaw, as it changes the entire shape of the wing.  Also, with all of your talk of the "corrected" bonding issues at the seam, why is it we can fit anything, razorblade or otherwise, into the crack at said seam? 

I'm sorry to be harsh, but you've provided a sub-par product.  Would you have done the same for someone like me, who's well known on this forum, and who you'd be sure to hear back from?

#frijolee

You know he can just return the wing if he isn't happy with it? This doesn't have to become a pissing match. Jesus.

[carlosmithttt]

Send the wing back, get a refund and go buy something off eBay. Delete the thread.

Ha... if that's what I wanted that's what I would have done.  Just need something strong and functional.  Instead I got this. No pissing match needed.  Just want to make sure my expectations shouldn't be matching Joels for this kind of thing.

[65imp]

I'm the cohort. 
I'm happy to respond to all criticism. 
I'm fine with you bringing this all into the public eye, as I have nothing to hide. 

We at Ronin are not here to screw anyone.  I won't ask for defense from the members of the forum that we have served for years. 

I may not be a professional, but i do a fair amount of work on vehicles and take pride in the work I do. 

Let me start off by saying we have NO PROBLEM TAKING THIS WING BACK AND GIVING YOU A FULL REFUND.
Obviously your needs are not met, and you are the customer, and you are not pleased.  Then wrap it up, send it back to us.  We will do the body work, we will drill a 3/8 inch hole in the end of the wing, and remove the rivet head that shook loose in shipping.  Then we will run it.

I know you paid "a lot" for the wing.  We priced it high so we would not have to sell it.  We had 2 wings left, one for Joel, 1 for Ash.  We sold you the wing we were going to use for Joel because we wanted to help out another racer, rather than store it for the future. 

The condition of the fiberglass is as we receive it.  There are mold lines we leave on it, rather than sanding/filling/spray painting.  The gap you feel is unsafe is surrounded by what I can guarantee you is an inch of cabosil bonding the two halves of the wing together.  If you feel that the original version of this wing would be superior I am happy to send you the original, but I must warn you it is skinned with 1/4 to 3/8 of bondo all around to have a matching profile, and if I put my thumb into the fiberglass it distorts more than a 1/2 inch.  Essentially we made this part because Joel bought an "original Amemiya wing" and it was garbage.  We could only justify the costs of making a new one by trying to sell it as a product.  Then we sold 2 or 3 and determined there is WAY too much work and no profit on each one we sell, so we have tried not to sell them. 

Cut to a customer, a forum member and a friend who likes the work we did.  Joel remembers the positives about this project, and from the other side of the world decides we should give it a go.

Since Joel was out of town, so he had me gather pieces from around his garage and assemble this for you, and I assembled it perfectly.  Perfectly backwards.  What's really amazing is that these T mounts with their compound curves actually match up to the exact landing location perfectly backwards without distorting the skin on the underside of the wing.  This was not a phenomenon Joel, Steve or I anticipated.  You got the same writeup I did, there is no mention of which way the brackets mount up.  All the 3rd gen wings I have worked on have the adjustment point in the rear.  This wing adjusts on the front. 

I really wish you knew how pissed I was about this.   made every effort to install this flawlessly.  You can see how easily one could have a drill bit drill through the top skin, or have the alignment off 1/8 inch from left to right, or the adjustment holes could be off, so that the bolts would not smoothly go in at the differing rake angles.  NONE of this was an issue, except the F'ing mounts were backward .  After a heated conversation with Joel in China I went for a walk and promptly rolled my ankle in the street a mile from my house.   

And the next day I drilled out the heads, and in order to remove those heads I had to whack them towards that delicate top skin.  You can see the result.  They would not release with any modicum of pressure less than what I used.  Then I removed as many as would roll freely, electing not to damage the top skin further. 

Would I rather not sell you this thing?  Would I rather have 5 evenings back that I spent on this?  Would I rather be at dinner with my family, instead of writing this response? 

The answer is YES. 

We should have told you NO, we don't have these, we don't have spare parts for servicing them, we can't get replacement parts, we lose money on them.

But we did not. 

We wanted to help you with your dream, with your Goals, with your project.  Because that's what we would want a buddy to do for us, and that is how we treat all you guys.  So we did what we could.  I sure hope we can learn from this - admit when the requests are too much.  Sorry to let you down man.  I am sure you will be much happier with another wing.  We will remove this product from our website. 

[65imp]

At this point I feel bad for pushing my friend and co-worker to buy this wing.  After hearing of the phone conversation and now seeing the email correspondence, I cannot believe this is how any company's customer service would be handled. 

First off - admit that this is not how every composite wing is sent out.  You said yourself in the email below that it has several different "cosmetic" issues.  It'd raise a pretty large red flag for me if every one of my products had such significant flaws and still made it to the customer.  Second - you need to stop making it sound like the customer has no clue what they are talking about when they have a complaint of a part that you did not even see before shipping (not to mention, this customer is no stranger to body work, as that was his full time job for 10+ years previous to his current position).  Lastly - this composite wing is not engineered in nearly as superior of a manner that you clearly see. It is, very obviously, still susceptible to cosmetic flaws, and not exempt from any structural imperfections. 

Speaking of structural imperfections, the wing sounds like a rain stick because it has so many loose parts floating around inside it - yet we are to believe it is still cosmetic flaws only?  Metal inside a composite does not act as abrasive and weaken a part such as this?  What if this causes a failure on track?  Never mind the drill bit going so far into the wing it almost punched through the other side.  That is beyond a cosmetic flaw, as it changes the entire shape of the wing.  Also, with all of your talk of the "corrected" bonding issues at the seam, why is it we can fit anything, razorblade or otherwise, into the crack at said seam? 

I'm sorry to be harsh, but you've provided a sub-par product.  Would you have done the same for someone like me, who's well known on this forum, and who you'd be sure to hear back from?

#frijolee

It is our every intention to meet the needs of our fellow enthusiasts. 
I have nothing but respect for you Josh, you represent and embody what we seek to do in this tiny little neck of the modified car woods. 
As is the prerogative of ANY of our customers - we are happy to honor the price they paid and return the item.  No need to throw your forum ced into the mix.  We would offer the same to anyone - even without internet access. 

The only point I would draw to defend Joel while he sleeps is that there is a difference between cosmetic and structural.  While bodywork experience is an incredible skillset, it is not the sort of experience that gleans a great deal of aerodynamic composite layup schedule knowledge. 

As it stands Carlos, yourself, and Carlos' wife don't like the way it looks, and don't want to try and fix it. 

Sorry

Could you please return it.  Happy to get you $ back. 

[Track_FC]

As someone who purchased one of these wings from Ronin it's clear that a lot of assembly labor goes into them after they are pulled from the mold. It doesn't surprise me that they make minimal profit on them at their price point. The front leading edge was a little rough on mine but I know that it's a raw composite part - my body shop will take care of that when it goes in for paint. If they fully painted all of the wings prior to sending them out the price would easily be $300 more than it currently is.

I really think this thread has been blown out of proportion and the original poster is leaving out the part of the story where he insisted on getting the part shipped out despite the issues. It sounds like Ronin should have just told you tough luck and the last wing they had was damaged during construction and refunded you at that point. Lesson learned by them I guess.

I just don't think you needed to make this big forum thread when Joel offered a full refund prior to you even making this thread...

[frijolee]

Carlos,

Your response makes me sad.  We offered you three reasonable options to proceed and made significant efforts to meet your expectations.  Yes, there were some issues and I immediately owned up to them.  All you had to say is that you were choosing option #2. 

However, it does bother me a bit that you titled this complaint "service" as well as "quality..."  In complaining about our service, did you mention that every email you sent us has been answered promptly?  That's not trivial, with as many questions and queries as you've had.  Did you mention that when I called you, I was calling from an international assignment in CHINA to talk this through the challenges and see what we could do it make it right?  The response you threw back in my face above?  I stayed up and sent that from my hotel room at almost 1 o-clock in the morning even though I had to be up early so that I wouldn't keep you waiting.  Who does that? 

We run Ronin because we're part of this community and because we care about these cars in particular.  Having someone take us to task when we already offered them a full refund?  That hurts fella.  Is it unreasonable for us to expect a little tact out of our customers when--every once in a while--things don't quite go how we wanted? 

Those camber links you mentioned?  We shipped them on Monday (it was intended to be a show of good faith and we did that before you jumped online reamed us) even though the invoice is still outstanding and you haven't actually paid us for them.  We would like to request that you return those as well, as to be frank, we would prefer to not have any of our components on your car at this point.  If you really want them, then we'll do as you originally suggested and deduct the price from your refund.

Good luck with your project either way.  I'll make you up the RMA this evening.  It would be graceful if you'd remove this thread as no one likes their mistakes broadcast widely. 

Regards,
Joel Payne

[cholmes]

Man, as a business owner manufacturing and selling high performance aftermarket parts for 10 years, I have been through this pain. And Ronin is doing the exact right thing in offering a full refund.

A couple of times, I have given in to customers who BEGGED me to send them parts when all we had in stock were "damaged but usable in a pinch", or "not exactly the right part, but possibly can be modified to work", because "Man, I gotta go racing, you HAVE to sell me something!! I promise I can handle any issues, because (and this is the BEST one) I'm an ASE certified mechanic, it won't be a problem!!"

It's always a HUGE problem. If that customer isn't delivered a part that is damn near PERFECT in appearance, and bolts on with ZERO effort WITHOUT reading the instructions, that customer is instantly PISSED and shouting on the phone, EVEN if he got the part at a deep discount.

We won't sell a discounted part with anything more than the slightest imperfections in appearance; if it's been bolted up but never actually run, then it's sold as a "garage sale" part at a discount, but that's as far as we go. Whenever we've given in to someone and sent something out that was truly used, or needed to be modified by the customer to work, it's bitten us in the ass every single time, always by us trying to help a fellow car guy out in a tough situation. No good deed goes unpunished!

Joel, you're handling this just right, having him send the part back and offering a full refund. Class act by a classy guy. But don't be surprised if he refuses to send it back!

[carlosmithttt]

  I didn't beg to be sent anything.  My point is it should not have been sent out.  At no point did they tell me they beat the bejesus out of it and I would have to fix it. The email I got from Joel was on the day it arrived.  I didnt have time to "beg."  They had sent it out a week before.  The way you talk to me, Joel, is the problem I have with your service.    No smoke blowing up arses is the wayi function. This is an unacceptable part and if you didn't want to sell it then don't.  It's not my fault.  All of this could have been solved by what 65imp just said.  You should have said no.  I would have a lot more respect for you if you did.  I prefaced all of this by asking you about this wing.  Is it a good wing etc.  I told you I preferred to buy the frp but would buy the carbon from you if that's what you had. All of your decisions led to me being unhappy. I do own my own business and I get it.  Something like that would not have left my door for 300 bucks.  1200?  Nope. Wouldn't matter what it costs to make. Its only worth what someone will pay for it.  I wouldn't touch this wing in this condition for more than 300. One that just needs typical fiberglass part prep (finishing moldlines etc) I would have paid exactly what I did for.

And as far as leaving parts out?  I can post em all if you want.  If anything the previous emails show how understanding and willing to work with him I was. No begging happened.  65imp, I do appreciate you chiming in and I feel like if I had contacted you first then we wouldn't be trading parts and money back and forth.  Honesty is awesome.  Don't need help that doesn't help.

 Reading back, this thing does sort of sound like a witch hunt.  I apologize for that. 

Joel, it's all about expectations.  If you had told me to expect this thing in the condition I got it in,no problem.  Don't send it. Instead you told me I would be getting a New one that I would be putting together.  Then on the day I go to pick it up from fedex you send me an email that says you want to make something right?  Then acting like my expectations were unreasonable when you set them there?  Then telling me I should just drill holes in the side my new part to remove loose pieces. Then telling me a body shop would charge an hour to fix and prep this disaster?  For the record....everyone at work agrees this thing is terrible. We all have a lot of experience on our side.

Bahh.... I'm done. No need to keep talking about it. Thanks for listening.  The answers I wanted I got from the first few replies.  Thanks everyone for your experience and knowledge I have used on this forum without you guys even knowing.  This place is great and I'm sorry my first post was this one.