Joel's garage build / organization

[frijolee]

 

[moores.4]

Well done Joel!! another person with OCD 

 A small suggestion before you load the atic spray the ceiling and rafters white this will help with reflection (plus look clean) when you install your lighting otherwise it will get extremely dark when fully loaded.

[cholmes]

Good suggestion on spraying the ceiling and rafters white. I've also found that spiders like bare wood a lot more than painted wood, so you'll reduce the number of them in your attic by painting, I think.

[gc3]

that is a crazy amount of work to do basically alone,
looking good!

[GEAUX FAST]

You sir are the exact opposite of me, and that makes you my hero. The attention to detail is perfect. Nicely done!

[frijolee]

Thanks y'all.   

What I'd really like to do in lieu of paint is put a white (or light colored) rigid foam insulation under the wood shake roof structure.  It seems like rigid insulation would hold well with a minimum of fender washers and screws.  That would likely go a long way to both lightening up the attic and doing something about the heat up there in the afternoon.  It can be pretty miserable if it's hot outside and the roof has been baking. 

The roof itself is showing some wear so I'm probably 5 years out from a new one.  Someone told me they don't re-roof on a wood shingle structure anymore so I'd like any insulation to be removable/reuseable if needed. Does anyone have background on proper insulation materials for a wood shake/asphalt shingle roof?  The worst thing I could do would be have this go wrong on me and get condensation (and then mold) trapped against the inside of the roof.

Since were're talking about making a "nice" space:  I also strongly debated carpeting the attic (65imp's method) but at the end of the day I wasn't looking forward to the cost if I bought new, or the headache of hunting down remnant. I decided I was pretty anxious to start wrenching on the RX7 and I couldn't do that with things stored in the garage below.  After making that call, I decided bare (but nice) wood was fine for the top surface and I started loading the attic pretty much the next day after I got the plywood screwed down.

[frijolee]

Thanks also for the suggestions on plumbing air and misc other topics.  It looks like I had missed a few comments prior to the last big post.  I'll look into grabbing another fire extinguisher or two. 

To Quinn's question on flooring, yes, the epoxy fills in little blems and binds loose stuff, however if you go too thick it stays yellow rather than shifting to clear.  I can see some of that in the cracks around the edges.  I've also found you can scratch it if you whip a mechanics jack sideways rather than rolling it.  It's going to take some wear for sure, but should stand up better than many things.


For now the two bits I'm working on are electrical and air. 

On the electrical front, I'm upgrading service from 100A to a 200A main.  Interestingly my inspector from Edison basically tried to talk me out of it.  He was suggesting that a simple 50A sub panel for the garage would do most things I wanted (I'm planning a 100A sub panel).  Even with some electric hooks up I'm still looking at $1000 in materials and $500 labor (that's me doing some of the work).  I'm not really sure whether the amount of service is just a nut swinging contest but I'd rather have the headroom and since it's an upgrade (likely get my money back out if we ever sell the place) I'm pulling the trigger anyways.

In regards to air, I have a handshake agreement to pick up a friend's 80 gallon Speed-air horizontal compressor (when he upgrades, which should be in the next month or two).  Plan is for it to live outside along the wall of the house next to the AC compressor.  That means I probably have an 80 or 100 ft run before I break into the garage, and then I need to distribute from there.  I'd be interested in tips for a "remote mount compressor" if you have them.  IE Appropriate hardline materials, pipe sizing etc.  If anyone has tricks on easy ways to wire a switch inside the garage rather than walking outside, I'm all ears.  I've definitely heard enough folks mentioning the drop down reels to be looking at those.  Also thinking about building a little shed for the compressor to keep the noise down and out of the elements.

In the meantime, lights are done and at least functional if not wired in with 100% permanence.  I also moved and stored a ton of misc things.  That let me clear off and finish cleaning up my welding table (I'd bought an old one in need of some love during the move).  Those couple things done got me close enough to start using the garage instead of just working on it, and that has me feeling stoked after all the hard work.   

[BLKMGK]

For hardline on my garage I used copper, it's gotten more expensive but it certainly works! Rubber from the compressor to the hardline. PVC inside can be scary, especially if it takes a blow while temps are really low - it explodes complete with shrapnel so bear that in mind. Pex sounds doable tho! Make sure you have some condensation dumps, I used ball valves. Harbor Freight air and electrical reels rock. Garden hose hangers are awesome for coiled hose and some have storage for nozzles. Standardize on connectors, nothing worse than multiple types floating around the garage! Oh, consider installing electrical outlets and a hose outlet outside the garage, they make weather shields that work great. Makes airing the tires or running a tool outside way easier! Get crazy and install a hot water faucet out there too


Insulation, I'm a huge fan of spray foam but if you're going to remove the cladding go with rigid and I'd use the foil covered stuff to reflect the IR. You may risk baking the cladding however, usually IR shield leave an air space and vent at the ridge. You really want to block the IR if you can! Most insulation guys don't want to insulate the deck but the Govt studies I read for spray foam said it worked well. I couldn't get my guys to do it and make my attic a controlled space

[quinns]

PEX will apparently do the shrapnel thing too but that's what I used anyways haha. I ran 1/2 inch pex main lines so I didn't have to worry about bottle necking the air volume before it gets to the different size hoses and ports I use. I have three 3/8ths reels and a 1/2 inch reel by my OH door I use for running a 1 inch impact for industrial shit that you likely don't need to worry about. Make sure you put a slight tilt in any hard lines that lead to something you can drain any water. It should also be as high up as you can and any connections to your main line should drop down, again for water. It's amazing how much capacity you add to your air supply just in all the hardline a guy can run. Connection from the compressor to your hardlines should be rubber to take out the vibration from the compressor. I made a big hydraulic line for mine but that's likely overkill.

It's going to be hard to insulate your roof. I get a lot of condensation in my shop by not having an attic. I'd go spray foam if you do though.

When you're talking reroof you mean resheeting the roof? I don't understand what you guys are talking about or maybe have never seen a roof like yours. Likely just different jargon. I don't see what it has to do with replacing the shingles/shakes. Definitely don't spray foam if you have to remove it. I don't know what it costs there but here it is $$$.

[frijolee]

Thanks for the tips...  That gives me some things to think through.

I'm not at all sure I'm describing this roof correctly.  Structure appears to be built as follows:
-2x6 rafters running up the incline (might be 2x8, can't remember)
-1x6 cross boards horizontally
-overlapping tapered wood shingles each maybe 5x15' net
-then the sealing paper whatever that stuff is called
-then overlapping asphalt shingle each maybe 12" tall and 3' wide.  Each top shingle covers give or take half the shingle below.



It's the 1x6 cross boards that make me think tying in a rigid foam from below would be pretty simple.  My understanding is that if I were to replace the roof they'd tear off the wood shingle (maybe the 1x6s too) and replace with plywood.

[frijolee]

Lights

There was a big post about lights and research earlier in this thread so I'm leaving all that aside.  Brass tacks:  I ended deciding on a 14 total dual bulb T8 4 ft fixtures in a 4100k color temp.  All fixtures order from Home Depot, all bulbs ordered from www.1000bulbs.com.

Obviously there are lots of options (this was maybe 20% of Home Depot's display). 




I ended up going with the Lithonia lighting mini fixture:

-Model # MNS8 2 32 120 RE M6
-Internet # 202563409
-Store SKU # 492819
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-2-Light-White-Fluorescent-Lighting-Strip-MNS8-2-32-120-RE-M6/202563409?N=5yc1vZc9h7

At the moment I'm running 9 fixtures in the main garage and 5 in the attic.  Here's the garage layout. 




Goals were to spread light to as many nooks and corners as possible.  Keep lights in the aisles and to the sides of the car and main work surfaces.  Minimize shadows caused by the main garage door in both the up and down positions.  I ended up planning 3 light circuits.  My piss-ant two bulbs only that the garage came with are circuit 1 (I may add another fixture above the workbench as this would give me just a little more light when I'm just taking out the trash.)  Circuit 2 is all the side to side fixtures, and circuit 3 is all the fore-aft fixtures. 

I'm using a branched wire layout so it's based on 12/3 or 12/2 MC cable as needed.  Note, one confusing detail I didn't know before. 12/3 wire is actually 4 wires: red, black, white, green (ground).  12/2 cable is 3 wires: black, white, green.  You don't count the ground wire when specifying cable.  To run a branched wire circuit all lights share white and green while black or red alternates.  The termination to power is also important because if you wire the lights to separate legs you can make the shared white wire have a superposition of waves (alternating current) such that the amplitude of the waves cancels out.  Wire it wrong and you end up with superposition of waves that doubles rather than deducts.

Each of my ballasts is 0.8 amps so at the moment I just have them wired all together.

I did note that not all fixtures comes with the same ballasts, but it doesn't really seem to matter.





I made little brackets for the 4 lights which run in line with my attic joists. 




This not only helps with heat (probably unnecessary but still), but it also offsets the fixtures slightly in helpful ways.  Near the attic opening this means I won't be whacking lights on the way up.  And at the garage door end it means that the lights are better aligned to shine through the little windows in my garage door (while in the up position).




I also got a little clever with mounting towards the sides of the garage.  To keep lights useful I ended up dropping them down and mounting them to either side of the garage door rails.  We'll see if they live, I can run chains from the roof if need be.  I did add little isolators from Mcmaster to give them a fighting chance.






There are special clips for both single and double MC cable made to work with 1/2" knock outs.  The wiring inside lights can get pretty snug with the mini fixtures if you're running a 12/3 cable passing through which simultaneously branches off to some other fixture.  A standard fixture would make that easier, but given several of my lights are free floating across the joists I wanted to keep them small.




So how'd it go?  Here's a before shot with my pre-existing 2 bulbs only.  Camera trying desperately to compensate for the dark.




And after... I really should probably do this with the SLR on manual mode so it can't compensate for the the light it sees.  It's absolutely a night and day difference. 




It's bright and has almost no shadows except directly under car and under welding table.  Lighting around the edges of the things intentionally worked great.  I might consider 2 fixtures a floor level to help with under car, but I'd have to figure our an armored fixture.  I like the light color temp a great deal.  It's clearly more blue than the rest of my house but not objectionally so.  If anything I think I could have done 3500k but I'm satisfied as is.




Lights along the edge of the garage door tracks work great and no issues thus far.




Lights through the windows worked out too.




I think I could have gotten a bit more out of them if I dropped them closer to the windows, but it's not worth redoing.

Having a functional space--particularly when I haven't for about half a year--just has me stoked.
-Joel

[BLKMGK]

Insulate and drywall the sides or at least paint the walls white. Made a HUGE difference in light for my garage! I now understand your roof better, I'd do rigid foam foil up with an air gap - do you have a ridge vent?

[frijolee]

Insulate and drywall the sides or at least paint the walls white. Made a HUGE difference in light for my garage! I now understand your roof better, I'd do rigid foam foil up with an air gap - do you have a ridge vent?

Planning drywall for that wall, but need to pre-load it with electrical and air first. 

Not sure on ridge vent but generally that probably means no.  Any ideas on appropriate air gaps?  Do they sell specific stand offs for such a purpose?

[BLKMGK]

The guys I spoke to who were going to hang infrared shielding on my roof were going to staple it to the 2x4 trusses, I've got plywood sheathing. The idea is to have a bit of a chimney effect down to the soffits and up to the ridge vent. The foil reflects the infrared before it can hit anything inside. In the end I didn't go forward with it, I don't have a ridge vent and just have end vents so it didn't seem like it would work. Their next idea was to put the foil down on top of my blown in and I backed out.


The idea is to create a "controlled space" up there, if you use that term with a heating or insulation guy they should know what you're talking about. I can't say enough good things about spray foam except you really want all utilities run beforehand! No sense considering it though if you're going to swap out the boards you have now with sheathing. My upstairs was done with spray, house wrap, and rigid foam with foil on the sides and spray foam plus blown-in on top and it's amazing.


Best thing to do is chat up insulation guys for ideas. If you can block the infrared and insulate it'll be pretty nice and stuff won't get heat damaged. One thing I did to help move air was wire some spare AC squirrel fans up to switches, I can move a good bit of air if I want!

[RX7what]

Yes Joel, 2 roofs is now the max you can layer in CA (used to be 3), so if and when the time comes for a new roof they will have to strip the two layers you have now down to the joists. Which will mean they need to sheet the roof with OSB probably 7/16" before they can roof again. Everything else looks great if you have any building question from a contractors point of view let me know. The paper is called tar paper. But most contractors don't use it anymore as there are new better replacements available. Honestly for insulation I would run standard fiber glass between the joists. Fit the thickest you can, maybe R19. If you do a nice job folding the paper edges over the joists and stapling nicely it can look decent from below. If want to go full OCD insulate and then sheet rock will keep it nice and warm or cool in your garage.