March 14, 2025, 08:21:50 PM

Author Topic: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)  (Read 814152 times)

Offline Cobranut

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #585 on: April 10, 2020, 07:43:42 PM »
I normally blur numbers, but that plate expired years ago so I wasn't worried about it.

About the only thing someone could gain from the number is your address and the VIN of the vehicle.
EVERYONE around here is heavily armed and quite capable.  Thieves wouldn't last long in my neighborhood.
Redneck neighbors make for the best neighborhood watch programs.  8) :cheers:
1995 FD, 7.0 Liter stroked LS3, T56, 8.8, Samberg kit.

Offline cholmes

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #586 on: April 11, 2020, 02:53:45 AM »
Joel, I was looking back a few posts and noticed your comment about your hard shifting trans, and that bleeding the clutch doesn't help.

That sounds like a classic case of the trans bell housing not being concentric to the crankshaft. Are you running a stock bell housing or aftermarket? I know your engine is a stroker, do you know if the mains were ever align bored?

Aftermarket bell or align bored mains means there's a very good chance you need to use offset dowels to properly center the bell housing (and in turn, the trans input shaft) to the crank.

The bad news is, you'll have to pull the trans & clutch, bolt up the bell, mount a dial indicator on the crank with its plunger on the trans register hole in the bell, then spin the crank to check TIR. TIR > 0.010" is too much.

The good news is, we sell the best offset dowels on the market:
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/dowels.html

These are the ones T-56 conversion kit manufacturers like American Powertrain and Silver Sport Transmission use in their kits.

Hope this helps.

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #587 on: April 12, 2020, 04:17:30 AM »
Cholmes.  Thanks for the tip!  Not something I looked at thus far but certainly worth investigating.

One symptom that's a bit weird.  With the clutch on the floor in gear (seemingly drivetrain disengaged) if I rev it hard...  Making noise at a stoplight or whatever, the clutch grabs and it tries to go.  Not a full on clutch dump but it'll lurch forward. 

Monster stage 4 pressure plate and billet flywheel but I've dropped down to a stage 3 friction disk.  OEM slave, hardlines look fine (no leaks that I know of) and a wilwood 7/8" (I think) master.  Grabs in the middle of the pedal travel in what seems to be a decent range.

Joel
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #588 on: April 12, 2020, 08:28:20 AM »
That could still be a misalignment symptom;   The edge of the clutch disk can kiss the pressure plate (along the outer circumference of the clutch disk).   We had that issue on Drew’s car.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline Cobranut

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #589 on: April 12, 2020, 11:53:50 AM »
That could also be a sign of air in the hydraulic system, or a soft line expanding.
Many clutches have centrifugal assist weights which increase clamp load as RPM increases.
Any "flexibility" in the clutch release mechanism could allow the slave to move slightly when revved.
1995 FD, 7.0 Liter stroked LS3, T56, 8.8, Samberg kit.

Offline cholmes

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #590 on: April 13, 2020, 12:00:43 AM »
Yeah, like digitalsolo says, clutch grabbing when you rev with the pedal down is a symptom of misalignment; that's also why misalignment leads to hard shifting, in effect, the clutch is partially engaged even though the pedal is down.

Cobranut, the centrifugal assist clutches with weights on the diaphragm spring fingers (Centerforce) are really just a gimmick. Those weights do increase clamp load a small amount, but only at very high RPM (8,000+). My business partner worked several years at Tilton doing clutch design and they tested that design thoroughly, frankly, the little weights held in place by a wire can cause more problems than they're worth. Sometimes the weights move, causing the diaphragm fingers to bind.

My partner typically suggests that if you have weird stuff going on with a Centerforce (vibration, slipping) just cut the wire and remove the weights. Centerforce isn't a low quality clutch overall; I have one in my car (came with it), and as matter of fact, it's starting to slip. Hmmm.

Joel could have air in the system, but he's bled it many times. A soft line could be doing it, but the grabbing when revving with the pedal down, and not at idle, really makes me suspect misalignment. The T-56 conversion companies always stress to their customers to check it very carefully; it's not that rare a problem.

Offline cholmes

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #591 on: April 13, 2020, 12:03:54 AM »
Just caught that Joel's using Monster clutch, no centrifugal weights, so that's not the issue.

Offline cholmes

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #592 on: April 13, 2020, 12:27:39 AM »
One last thing (guess I'm on a roll): the OEM slave really is crap.

The TOB slides on a bare aluminum sleeve, which can get grooved and cause weird problems with the TOB sticking as it moves. Replace it with a good aftermarket slave, like McCleod, Tilton, Ram. We use Ram's "heavy duty" one in our FC lemons car with 3800 supercharged / T5. The late T5s use the same slave as T-56, and we fought all kinds of problems (mainly getting air in it when hot) and the Ram slave completely fixed them. It's the cheapest solution we could find. We had already checked alignment.

Bottom line: while you have it apart, check the alignment, put in a good aftermarket slave.

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #593 on: April 13, 2020, 07:58:41 PM »
So if I run with the theory of T56 misalgniment due to a crank hone, how likely is it the I've damaged the trans?  It has gotten harder shifting as time has gone on. This was a rebuild I had done with Six Speeds inc with most of their bells and whistles (micronited shafts etc).
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #594 on: April 13, 2020, 08:24:28 PM »
You can check the runout on the input shaft;   Worst case replace the input shaft and/or bearing.   That’s not that a bad job, probably easier than the removal and reinstall task. You need to get the endplay right, the rest is pretty easy work, just fiddly.

I’d bet worst case it’s the bearing in the front cover.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #595 on: April 13, 2020, 08:49:11 PM »
Found Holley's alignment tool (AKA Quicktime).  Anyone have specific versions they like better/worse?  Still using a stock bell housing on mine.



Do the eccentric dowel pins only go between engine and bellhousing?  My assumption is that the dowels for trans to bellhousing are left alone since those should be machined concentric to the trans input shaft bore.
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline Cobranut

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #596 on: April 13, 2020, 09:46:12 PM »
Found Holley's alignment tool (AKA Quicktime).  Anyone have specific versions they like better/worse?  Still using a stock bell housing on mine.



Do the eccentric dowel pins only go between engine and bellhousing?  My assumption is that the dowels for trans to bellhousing are left alone since those should be machined concentric to the trans input shaft bore.

Yes, the offset dowels go between engine and bellhousing.
1995 FD, 7.0 Liter stroked LS3, T56, 8.8, Samberg kit.

Offline cholmes

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #597 on: April 13, 2020, 11:47:59 PM »
The "indexing plate" must be something for Quicktime bellhousings. Normally the center register hole in the bell housing is used to center the trans to the bell, so this register hole is where the dial indicator plunger is placed. This is how the OEMs center the trans to the bell. If using an aftermarket bell, check with the manufacturer. Joel, you'll use the trans register hole in the bell.

The tool itself is ok, although the magnetic base tends to shift out of place unless you're very careful. Joel, you're more than capable of making a simple bracket that bolts in place using one of the crank bolts, then holds the dial indicator in place. Much sturdier than the magnetic base setup.

That video does a good job of explaining the process. It is important to torque all the bell housing bolts down every time you measure. The video says "same torque on all bolts" is more important than the specified torque for the bell housing bolts. We disagree. Bolt to specified torque, in the same sequence, every time. It is surprising how much bells, especially fabricated steel ones, will warp as they are tightened. OEM bells are better, but can still warp a little. "Just snug" will have you running in circles, chasing the offset. BTW, I'm not a fan of hammering the offset dowels in place like he shows. That's a good way to mushroom the dowels or raise burrs on them or the bell. Remove the bell, install the dowels, reinstall the bell.

Once you've got the offset dowels set and the TIR is good (and the center lock screw in the dowels is tightened to spec), loosen the bell housing bolts one last time and re-torque, and check TIR one more time to be sure. TIR </= .010" and you're good to go.

The guy in the video says that Holley / Lakewood offers a variety of offset dowel designs. They do indeed, and the best ones, by far, are the ones he uses in the video. The others tend to be too tight or too loose in the block. The expandable ones he uses in the video don't have that problem. They are also the most expensive by far. Summit sells them for $112.95 per pair.

Here's the thing: Holley bought those dowels from us (RobbMc Performance) in bulk for about $22 a pair, then marked them up to $112.95. Yes, really.

It's been a while since they bought from us, so maybe they've copied the design and are making them. We charge $29 a pair. In fact, some guys buy them from us in all 3 offsets (.007", .014", .021") before starting the process, so they can use the offset needed without having to measure, then place the order and wait for the dowels. Let's say you order all 3 offsets, then measure and find you need the .014" ones. You can then return the others to us; as long as they've never been installed, we'll refund the purchase price for the unused ones.

Finally, Joel, you're using the stock bell housing, so if you need offset dowels, it will almost certainly be the .007" ones.

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #598 on: November 05, 2020, 11:53:40 PM »
Well, 7 months of pandemic later and I'm been limping the car around autocrosses and avoiding hard shifts where I can.  I'm definitely ready to make some trans changes.  First my thanks to @cholmes for the advice on trans indexing.  I'll be picking up all three sets of dowels from you guys shortly.  Is there a return window I should be aware of?  That said, my rebuilt T56 was only ever OK.  The Monster stage 4/3 blended clutch I'm running is "fine."  Given the existence of Ronin, I kinda figure I'm likely to own this car forever so I decided if I'm going to all the effort to get this put together nicely, I might as well go big...

So I'm gonna hang with the cool kids like @largeorangefont and pick up a Magnum F.  I like this damn car a lot and I'd love to drive it more so it's time to give it some love.  From my looking the Magnum F is supposed to be quite a bit nicer shifting.  I'm also eyeballing a McLeod RXT.  I thought I was there and was planning RXT over RST for some added abuse potential (well that and I just don't trust organic discs with the clutch dust issues on slaves).  But then I find reviews like this  https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1692102-mcleod-rxt-my-experience.html where it's nothing but dudes bitching about terrible chatter, terrible wear, and I don't know what to think.  Maybe I should just keep my monster and assume my problems are with dowels and hydraulics. 

Thoughts appreciated.
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline cholmes

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #599 on: November 06, 2020, 03:50:49 AM »
Sounds good Joel. No return window, send back the unused ones anytime. Drop us an email at robb@robbmcperformance.com when you're ready to return them to give us a heads up. One thing on our dowels: don't torque center screws to more than 48 in-lb; that's not much! When people have problems with the dowels, it's usually due to over-torquing the screws.

Certainly, if the indexing is off by much more than 0.010" TIR, it can really make shifting tough. I'd start with that, and of course, make sure the slave and its plumbing is in top shape before reinstalling the trans in the car. Finding a leaking hose end during clutch bleeding that requires removing the trans (again!) to fix will make you say bad words. Ask me how I know.

If you end up with a twin disc McLeod, I'll be interested in your opinion of it, I'm thinking of that sometime in the future as well.