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Author Topic: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)  (Read 814157 times)

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #285 on: August 06, 2013, 01:33:04 AM »
8.8 Diff Trimming – Cover and Housing

I’ve cut the ears off 3 or 4 diff covers at this point and the latest turned out the best I’ve done.  If it looks like it was done on a mill but I really did it by hand, that’s what I’m going for.




Typically I've found that angle grinders w/ cut off wheels work well for roughing out the part but I try to leave 1/8 or 3/16” more material than needed since angle grinder cuts in thick parts always wander a bit.

A big belt sander is really what you want to do to fine tune the shape and get cuts perfectly planar with each other.




I break all the sharp edges with a deburring tool when I’m done.


On the housing side we need to take down the lumps at the top and cut down the walls where the ABS sensor went before.  Same concept here:  angle grinder followed by belt sander.  BTW there’s nothing to that ABS sensor so I cut mine down and turned it into a perfect little plug. 

Here it is all trimmed, I was relatively stoked on how nice the cuts turned out, angles meeting at midpoints of bosses etc.




Bottom of front mount.  Just a small trim to help give clearance vs the tie rod mount point on the FC subframe.




My last area of trimming is optional.  I want isolation at the front mount so I like rubber mounts but I also want this to be quite firm.  Like most rubber bushing the center section of the ford mount sticks out beyond the surrounding rubber area (note the shadows of light leakage).



I take and cut down the center sleeve so it’s just a bit below flush thereby bringing all the surrounding rubber into contact with the Ronin bent strap for the 8.8 front mount.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 02:42:59 AM by frijolee »
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #286 on: August 06, 2013, 02:59:50 PM »
8.8 Diff Build

I really debated just paying someone else to do this for me.  It’s about $100 to have someone set it up (assuming you provide the pieces) and by the time you work out the tools and time required, having it built for you makes a heck of a lot more sense that what I did.

That said, I was curious…  and I like doing stuff myself particularly when there’s an opportunity to learn something.  So I started by ordering a DVD from a gent online who makes well reviewed DIY tutorials: Ken Collins AKA Bad Shoe Productions:  http://www.badshoeproductions.com/eight.html  Ken’s tutorial is a solid piece of work and I’m pretty confident I could do about any Ford rear end these days assuming I had a complete rear end to start with (giving me a baseline on shim thicknesses) and could find specs on the preloading required.   

The rebuilt kit itself I purchased from Drivetrain America:  It’s kit DRK311AMK http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-1831-drk311amk-ford-88-irs-master-timken-differential-bearing-kit.aspx



Their IRS kit is just about complete and even comes with RTV to seal it back up.  The IRS version includes the stub axle side bearings (it was a bit hard to find an 8.8 kit with decent bearings which specified it was for IRS).  Note, this does comes with stub axle side seal sized for the Explorer version of the Ford 8.8 IRS (meaning it’s not so good for Mustang Cobra guys, a fact I wasn’t sure of when I ordered it.   

One oddity though, of the three new seals you’ll want if you’re doing a complete rebuilt this only comes with two, a pinion seal and ONE stub seal (not two).  I found the part number and picked up an extra seal (Federal Mogul 100537V).

Only seals Included:


For the build itself, I didn’t have all the pullers needed and most of the bearings in this diff looked great.



Note, the first 8.8 I bought, now being used as a Ronin show piece, had trashed bearings so it’s worth opening it up to check.   Because it looked so nice so I wussed out and didn’t change everything, but rather only the bearings I needed to and all the seals.  I have the other bearings if it starts to howl on me down the road but for now I’m really itching to get this back on the road as fast as I can.

A couple tips…  The first major tool I needed and ended up making myself was a case spreader to be able to get carrier shims in and out.  You’re looking to spread the case about 0.030” as measured at the outside surfaces.  Here’s my DIY version. 






I got the internals for the rear with trashed bearings out without using spreader but I’m not sure you’d be getting a decent version out without one.  All the carrier bearing pre-load occurs via case spread.


Once the internal were out the first step was to install my new yoke (part numbers in painting sidebar above).   For re-install I’m now running a solid pinion shim kit instead of the crush sleeve.  It took a few tries to get this dialed in so my final measurements were:

Former crush sleeve:



Solid shim stack up:



Racetec (source of my solid pinion shim kit) recommend you start slightly thicker and drop down in 0.002” increments.  For install you put the thick shims toward the lip on the pinion shaft to avoid deforming the thin shims.




Pinion pre-load must be done torqued and this done with the old nut torqued to 125 ft-lbs but that meant building yet another custom tool to restrain the yoke.  I probably could have just viced it, but I already had the thing painted, so I made a tool that used the strap holes.




The above stack up resulted in about 16 in-lbs of torque at break away and 6 in-lbs of torque when it’s already moving.  With new bearings the spec is 16-29 in-lbs not counting break away, but used bearings are typically 5-7 in-lbs so I’m right where I should be. 

Measuring preload also requires a specific torque wrench I didn’t have (aka dial indicator torque gauge).  I bought a used Snap On but if you wanted to do it on the cheap, a Park Tool model TW1 from your local bike shop would get it done.  A click type torque wrench isn’t cutting it.




Last thought on the pinion side of things.  I had a old timer gear head I trust recommend packing the seal with wheel bearing grease.  It makes sense to me that some lube in this area would help it live a long happy life. 




Interestingly right after I did this I discovered that the bonus stub axle seal I bought came pre-packed with grease.  Previously I'd never known whether I should be doing this or not and I’d just been wiped the seals down with the fluid I was sealing against (engine oil, transmission fluid, gear oil or whatever).  However, as I think about it, running a heavier grease makes sense from a longevity of lubrication perspective.
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline largeorangefont

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #287 on: August 06, 2013, 05:02:59 PM »
Great progress Joel!!

What u joints are you set up for on the driveshaft?
Quote from: cool
Sell it to spacevomit.  He'll finish it.

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #288 on: August 06, 2013, 06:57:18 PM »
Great progress Joel!!

What u joints are you set up for on the driveshaft?

Some of this (IE seat update) was progress from 4 months ago but thanks.  I've barely had time to wrench so I've been taking pictures as I go but haven't been posting much.  It does feel good to have light at the end of the tunnel.  I really want the rear end 100% in and off my workbench before I launch into the header/exhaust project and that's the biggest item still on the list.

I'm doing the 1350 u-joints.  I'd probably be fine with 1310s but decided to go this way both because I like the margin and because it made sense to do it the hardest way possible so I can help folks who might run into issues as Ronin customers.  (Hey, we're here to serve)   :yay:
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #289 on: August 07, 2013, 03:02:53 AM »
8.8 Diff Build Continued

Since I was re-using the pinion bearings, that was one less shim to deal with up front and pinion depth would already be set (that shim lives under the bigger bearing which presses onto the pinion).  That basically meant I still need to move ring gear over to my new diff, add bearings, rough in the shims to check backlash, check tooth pattern, and set preload.

Getting the ring gear off isn’t terrible.  It basically takes clamping the whole thing hard in a vise and using a drift to drive the ring gear down by banging on the bottom of each the now empty bolt holes in a circle.  I wrapped a bunch of newspaper and plastic wrap around the body to keep the ring gear from falling when it came loose.

My new diff is an Eaton/Detriot TrueTrac.  I’ve always liked the helical gear differentials behavior wise and for road course duty it made sense to me. 

I’ve been told you can cook the ring gear at 300 for an hour to warm and at the same time throw your diff in the freezer aid with reinstallation.  However, I didn’t find that necessary.  I did find that getting the hole patterned aligned is critical and not very forgiving. 




Once you get it close you want to start getting the hardware threaded and pull it the rest of the way in with fasteners.  I used old hardware to pull it down.  Removed and grabbed the new bolts, add Locktite 242 (blue) and 77 lf-lbs in a star pattern follow to lock it in.




Pressing bearings on was mostly straight forward with one exception.  To get the new inner bearing race to bottom out you have to press it a bit further than what would be flush to the outside surface.  After rooting around for a piece of tubing or a socket that would work—striking out in both cases—I caved and decided to just pull a race from the old hammered diff.

I was seriously convinced my puller was going to break trying to get this off.  I finally decided I was going to torque the puller till something lets loose.  Thankfully it was the race but I did bend my handle pretty good.




You can see how ugly the bearings were in the other diff. 




One you have an inner race separated that becomes the perfect tool to finish the press of the good bearing.






Now comes the tricky part.  I took quite a few measurements of the old carrier vs the new and it was close but I was finding numbers with a few thousandths variation.  The solid shims that came with my diff were 0.264” and 0.280” so I started by using the shim stack that came with my rebuilt kit to mock in a shims at 0.259” and 0.275” (0.005” under on each side, but potentially leaving a bit of preload since I had to use the spreader to get them in).

That actually worked out pretty well.  My runout on the assembly was only about 0.0015” on 0.003” allowed. 




Note: backlash, run out, and tooth patterns all have to be checked with the carrier caps torqued. Another spec at 77 ft-lbs.


Backlash was between 0.009 and 0.011 depending where I checked vs. runout.  The allowable range is 0.008” to 0.015” backlash with a preferred target of 0.010” 





It was close enough I went ahead and checked tooth pattern.


Paint on the goo (also included in the rebuild kit) and give it one rotation pass of the pinion.  You effectively just crank over the pinion a few time while holding firm pressure on the ring gear in the opposite direction to ensure it gets some pressure at the gear contact point. 

Pattern looked pretty good—a  nice confirmation of my pinion depth as well—on both drive (vertical) and coast (angled) sides of the teeth.






That meant now I was ready to set preload.  To keep my backlash and gear pattern I needed to be adding and subtracting the same amounts on each side vs the 0.259 and 0.275 I’d just checked.   For the aluminum housing you want a total of 0.014” preload or +0.007” on each side vs. whatever shims you can just slide in by hand (With an iron housing the correct spec is 0.012” total preload or +0.006” each side).  Problem is that my new bearing races were just a hair’s breadth larger than semi-circular bores I was dropping this into. 



That made shifting the races sideways to get them snug horizontally in order to slide in new shims a royal PITA.  I finally found that the only method that worked was to be sliding shims in with the races in place but not quite seated all the way down in the half bores of the housing where it would bind.






Unfortunately I’d used all but one of all of my shim stacks to make the 0.259” and 0.275” I was trying to adjust up or down from.  That was already 0.010” less than what came in the diff so I pulled one 0.009 shim and tried it 0.019” under my originals.  That was just a bit loose, and I figured I maybe need a few more thousandths. 

So then I used the solid 0.264” shim with a stack up measure 0.266” on the opposite side.  Backlash would be wrong but this would work out to exactly 0.014” under my original solid shims if it fit well.  At the end of the day this setup it was a little snug but I could still move the full diff assembly in and out by hand relative to the shims with no spread to the case.

I called that pay dirt, used my case spreader and installed my original 0.264 and 0.280 carrier shim.  Final backlash was 0.011” so just a hair loose of target (but good for road racing where things may get hot).

Rechecked tooth pattern and results weren’t quite as perfect; I found some minor shifts in and out between teeth.   However, it varies based upon which teeth I check and I’m sure I’m being more anal retentive than a shop doing this day in and day out so I called it good. Two areas shown for comparison.









One last final twist.  The TrueTrac diff comes with an access port intended to allow install of one of two provided spacers which in turn keep the axles with C-clips (IE those used with a solid rear axle) from sliding inward. 





The problem is that when using this diff with IRS stub axles and circ clips the spacer is just free to fall out either axle bore and I won’t be able to easily remove the diff cover once in the car to install the spacer after the fact. 

While some guys on the net report running their IRS TrueTrac’s without the spacer I was a bit concerned that my stubs could still try to slide inward putting unnecessary wear on my shaft seals.  Like the stock diff,  the circ clips pop out past splines into a void space (it’s not actually a dedicated circ clip groove).

I ended up calling Eaton to chat it up.  They recommend I install the spacer with a dab of heavy wheel bearing grease to keep it in position and just be careful to keep it horizontal during install.  The little bit of grease shouldn’t compromise the gear oil so I’m going to give it go and see what happens.
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #290 on: August 07, 2013, 03:03:25 AM »
TrueTrac Diff vs. Synthetic Gear Oil

Now that I’m ready to install the new rear (hasn’t happened yet) a question for the forum:  Eaton doesn’t recommend synthetic gear oil with TrueTracs as it can be “too slippery which can affect torque bias” and “can create a screeching noise”.  No detail on which synthetics, why or how it occurs.  I’d been planning to run and have already purchased a couple quarts of Amsoil Sever Gear 75-140.  I’ve been reading over at “Bob is the oil guy” and actually found a gent who’d run this Amsoil with a TrueTrac and no issues. 

I’d prefer the synthetic because I plan to run this hard, Amsoil has a reputation for great heat handling, and because I have seen some stock 8.8s having bearing issues.  Still straying outside manufacturer recommendations is always a dicey proposition.  Seems like I’d be able to figure out torque bias quickly driving it and screech I’d know immediately.  Thoughts? 
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #291 on: August 07, 2013, 07:31:58 AM »
I would consider looking into some high grade non-synthetics, though there is a good chance those may be just as slippery as the non-dinos.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline largeorangefont

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #292 on: August 07, 2013, 10:33:10 AM »
All my buddies that run helical diffs have run synthetic gear oil, and so did I in my Cobra with no noise or issue. On the Eaton website, and in the instructions for the Truetrac it says to "just run whatever your axle mfr. calls for".

I know this example is not a TrueTrac but Ford uses synthetic as a factory fill for their Torsen diff equipped Mustangs.
Quote from: cool
Sell it to spacevomit.  He'll finish it.

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #293 on: August 07, 2013, 12:57:25 PM »
Eaton's recommendations change depending which diff is in question.

From http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Automotive/AutomotiveAftermarket/Differentials/FAQforDifferentials/index.htm

"Truetrac

What kind of oil should I use? Can I use synthetic? Do I need friction additive/modifier?
A quality petroleum/mineral based oil works best in the Truetrac units. We do not recommend synthetic oil. Friction additive/modifier is not required."

It's just such a blanket statement I can't wrap my head around it.  Ash, if your car runs before mine I will definitely be looking at your results with interest.  FWIW here's the thread I found most helpful over at Bobistheoilguy.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1060477

Anyone else have opinions?



LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline largeorangefont

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #294 on: August 07, 2013, 03:54:03 PM »
Most everyone I know has run Royal Purple (that actually contained friction modifier), and so did I in the Cobra with no issue. That is about 10 guys in total.

I have the Amsoil 75w140 on hand, so I am going to try that first. I have little experience with it (I run it in my Yaris) but others seem to have had favorable results and it has no friction modifier in it.

If the only change is to the bias ratio by using synthetic fluid, then most won't notice a difference I would wager. That said, it may be a compelling enough reason to just run dino oil because I want as much bias ratio as possible without compromising the life of the differential.

If I hear any groaning coming from the diff I will change out the fluid. Quality dino oil is much cheaper so I guess I won't complain.
Quote from: cool
Sell it to spacevomit.  He'll finish it.

Offline Speedfab

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #295 on: August 08, 2013, 12:56:50 AM »
Joel, this is just based on what I have seen and my semi-educated opinion, so take it for what it's worth... Friction modifiers and specific lube recommendations matter a whole lot more in clutch type LSDs.  Truetracs have no clutches or friction material.  They rely on the force exerted on a combination of helical cut cylindrical gears for torque distribution.  IMO any oil that will adequately protect the surface hardness of the gear teeth will work, so try stuff until you get results you are happy with.


unless you own a turbo ls9 rx7 you do not know what the fuck you are talking about.

Offline gc3

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #296 on: August 08, 2013, 08:12:28 AM »
Joel, this is just based on what I have seen and my semi-educated opinion, so take it for what it's worth... Friction modifiers and specific lube recommendations matter a whole lot more in clutch type LSDs.  Truetracs have no clutches or friction material.  They rely on the force exerted on a combination of helical cut cylindrical gears for torque distribution.  IMO any oil that will adequately protect the surface hardness of the gear teeth will work, so try stuff until you get results you are happy with.
I completely agree that a clutch based lsd will have a wider range of 'adjustment' based on the oil, but the shear viscosity of the oil should be able to change the force needed to spin those gears, which will make a difference on the torque transfer "speed".

-edit- after rereading your post, i think all i'm doing is agreeing with you without providing any extra input.... so uh. nvm

Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #297 on: August 08, 2013, 10:30:47 PM »
Thanks for the inputs y'all.  I think I'm going to try some dino oil to get the new bearings broken in (and flush out any residual old oil I have), run it for a few hundred miles, then swap in the AMSOIL and compare.

As a side note since I have diffs on the brain...  I was talking about rear end setup with a co-worker who built up all Rod Millen's race cars and he mentioned a few things I thought were interesting. 

1) Apparently they used to used a rubberized grinding wheel to take off all burrs and sharp corners they could access anywhere on the teeth of both ring and pinion.  They basically just avoided the flats of the teeth.  It was only about a 0.005" radius (his guess) that they added but it helps fatigue life (makes sense).  They just called it "race prepping" the ring and pinion.

2) He confirmed they ran the backlash a bit on the loose side to allow for growth with heat and a relatively heavy oil to allow for a little more shock cushioning.

3) They always ran the solid pinion spacers (but they were machining their own from solid so no stack up).  The idea was that they didn't want a big shock load to compress the crush sleeve further than intended and lose preload.

I doubt I'm going to worry about any further adjustments since I'd have to pull ring and pinion all the way back out, but like I said, I thought it was interesting and wanted to share in case the info was useful to someone else.
LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)

Offline Jordan Innovations

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Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #298 on: August 21, 2013, 09:55:52 PM »
Great read.  I agree that viscosity might change helical characteristics, but lubricity/dino vs synth shouldn't.  Clutch type is a different story.


Offline frijolee

Re: Joel's LS1 FC parts list/swap thread (remixed)
« Reply #299 on: August 25, 2013, 09:29:51 PM »
Thanks for the chatter y'all.  I can see light at the end of the tunnel and it has me stoked on wrenching again.

8.8 Diff Build Continued

Just a few odds and ends from the build process.  Even back with the T2 rear end I'd been experimenting with cutting down the inner bushings sleeves to hold the diff a little tighter.  It seemed to help with wheel hop so I'm doing it again on the new version.

Factory maz comp bushing (note the gaps at top and bottom).




I take and cut down the sleeves to help it compress against the rubber.  Same idea that I posted up on the Ford front mount a few weeks ago.  Band saw doing it's thing (angle grinder works fine too and I used that for cleanup).  I paint the raw edges too.






Decking off the tips of the "crown washers" so I have a bit more surface area for compression.




End up with the leftover rubber tips seeing about an 1/8" of compression (mind the gap).



The other thing this helps with is raising up the crown washers to improve CV boot clearance.  I like this method enough that I'm planning to add it to the 8.8 install instructions as the official recommendation.  I may need to take a bit more off the top but the first pass at a fit check looks good.




While I was thinking about it I grabbed a better picture of the speed sensor I cut off to turn into a plug.





I also followed through on the install of the stub axle spacer using bearing grease to locate the spacer.  Void and spacer:






Access cap, circ clip and fit check of the hole pattern (this red diff was one of the first ones I ever cut so it took some very minor adjusting to incorporate fitment improvements that are now standard).




RTV-ed, buttoned up, torqued, and ready for install.




With the yokes I'm running at both ends it looks like I want a DS 33 7/8" between 1350 U-joint centers.  I'm going to wait for that to get here before I clearance my subframe (needed to run the big u-joints, most n/a folks should be fine with 1310s).

In the meantime, there's a bigger project afoot.   :halo:   I spent way too long planning this design and playing with it in CAD.  Finally started cutting bits last night.



-Joel



LS2 stroker FC, Mandeville big brakes, widebody, etc
Build thread:  http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.0
www.roninspeedworks.com

LargeOrangeFont says: "Joel is right, and I love Joel. But his car sounds like the wrath of God."   ;)