NoRotors.com - RX7 Engine Swap Forum
Technical Information => Build Threads => Topic started by: frijolee on June 21, 2010, 10:54:40 AM
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When V8 RX7 Forum went down in May 2010 I thought I'd reorganize this thread to be a little more user friendly. I wanted to sequence the thread into something more like I'd try if I had hindsight on my side. Plus I thought it would help to have topics broken down into smaller chunks for easier linking. FWIW the HTML text version of this thread is over 150 pages long and it contains close to 500 pictures so it's almost a v8 rx7 build book unto itself. I'm not going to cut out the hard moments or the things I broke, but hopefully this will be a better reference for those to come.
DigitalSolo was kind enough to bring copy all my original posts over from the other forum before it went fully offline so if you want to check out the originals see here. (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=193.0.html) I'll have him lock the other thread so this will be the sole source of info going forward.
Best regards and good luck!
-Joel Payne (AKA frijolee)
TABLE OF CONTENTS & HOT LINKS
Note: for whatever reason some browsers may put you slightly above the correct jump spot so you may need to scroll down slightly after using certain links...
Background:
-Where I started (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14023#msg14023)
-Some history on the car (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14024#msg14024)
-Early changes (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14025#msg14025)
-Details on the cage (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14027#msg14027)
-Mazdaspeed lip notes (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14086#msg14086)
Getting started with the swap:
-What you need to know (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14087#msg14087)
-LSX vs. Rotary comparison (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14088#msg14088)
-Other things I wish I would have known up front (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14089#msg14089)
-Cheap parts source for new GM pieces (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14090#msg14090)
Motor 1.0 Build:
-Timing chain install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14092#msg14092)
-Cam and oil pump install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14093#msg14093)
-Rotary equipment removal (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14094#msg14094)
-Installing rod bolts, Vette to F-body pan conversion (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14095#msg14095)
-Piston to valve (P to V) checking (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14096#msg14096)
-Upgraded rockers (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14097#msg14097)
-P to V questions and weirdness (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14098#msg14098)
-Adjustable timing chain (P to V solved) (http://)
Chassis Prep
-4-Piston brake conversion & Painting brakes (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14100#msg14100)
-T2 rear end install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14102#msg14102)
-Fuel pump upgrade (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14104#msg14104)
-Vette AC vs. Grannies mount conflict (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14105#msg14105)
-Header clearancing & Trans tunnel modifications (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14106#msg14106)
-Exhaust gasket porting (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14107#msg14107)
Motor 1.0 Install (through trial first firing)
-Motor install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14108#msg14108)
-Power steering (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14109#msg14109)
-Clutch hydraulics install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14110#msg14110)
-Shifter boot / sealing heat (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14111#msg14111)
-JTR radiator install w/ Volvo s80 fan (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14112#msg14112)
-First pass at fuel system (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14113#msg14113)
-Intake tract 1.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14114#msg14114)
-Wiring notes consolidated (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14115#msg14115)
-Swaybar fitment (AKA Vette accessories make things difficult (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14116#msg14116)
-LS6 pcv and steam tubes (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14117#msg14117)
-Integrating the OEM oil pressure sender (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14118#msg14118)
-Water temp sender adaptation (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14119#msg14119)
-Battery relocation, version 1.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14120#msg14120)
-Lengthening the throttle pedal (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14121#msg14121)
-Brake prop valve interference (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14123#msg14123)
-Heater hoses, version 1.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14124#msg14124)
-First motor firing (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14125#msg14125)
-Diff control, version 1.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14126#msg14126)
-First pics on 4 wheels (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14127#msg14127)
Finishing the install?
-Exhaust (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14128#msg14128)
-Driveshaft loop (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14129#msg14129)
-Splash guard fitment AKA engine belly pan (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14130#msg14130)
-Blitz type 01 wheels plus a video doing donuts (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14131#msg14131)
Little Improvements:
-Fan wiring w/ DC control box (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14132#msg14132)
-Adding to the main fuse block (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14133#msg14133)
-Battery relocation version 2.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14134#msg14134)
-Relocating Vette powersteering reservoir for better hood clearance (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14135#msg14135)
-Bench bleeding brake MC (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14136#msg14136)
-Urethane Rear LCA bushings & random track prep (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14138#msg14138)
-Urethane front suspension bushing change out (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14139#msg14139)
-AWR camber links (rear) (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14140#msg14140)
-Pinion snubber (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14142#msg14142)
-Corner weighting (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14143#msg14143)
-Mazfest track day reveiw (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14144#msg14144)
First Major Breakdown (Transmission Failure):
-Blown up slave cylinder (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14145#msg14145)
-Mcleod twin disk clutch (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14146#msg14146)
-Shimming the new clutch (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14147#msg14147)
-Transmission reinstall from below (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14148#msg14148)
Make it Handle, Make it Brake (1.0):
-Plans / details (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14149#msg14149)
-Two sets of wheels: Volk RE30 17x9, Mustang GT 17x8 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14150#msg14150)
-Longer wheel studs (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14152#msg14152)
-Shine/Foresight Widebody Front Fenders (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14153#msg14153)
-Fender lining relocation (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14154#msg14154)
-Rolling rear fender lips (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14155#msg14155)
-Custom wheel spacers (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14156#msg14156)
-Brake system design notes (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14157#msg14157)
-Mandeville big brakes teaser (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14158#msg14158)
-Mandeville big brake fitment (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14160#msg14160)
-Clutch MC rebuild (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14161#msg14161)
-Some days wrenching just SUCK? (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14162#msg14162)
-Oil cooler install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14163#msg14163)
-Oil pan baffle install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14164#msg14164)
Blown Motor:
-What went down (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14165#msg14165)
-Why did it happen? (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14166#msg14166)
The Rebuild
-Plans (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14167#msg14167)
-Dash removal and lightening (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14168#msg14168)
-Custom triple gauge pod (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14169#msg14169)
-DIY depowered steering rack (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14170#msg14170)
-Motor build version 2.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14171#msg14171)
-Poly motor mounts for Granny's kit (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14172#msg14172)
-DIY oil pump porting (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14173#msg14173)
-Rod bolts FYI (beware ferrules & stock vs. ARP vs. Katech) (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14174#msg14174)
-Head bolt differences (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14175#msg14175)
-Cracked rod bearing concentricity issues (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14176#msg14176)
-GTO vs. F-body LS1s and notes on dipsticks (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14177#msg14177)
-Heater hose relocation (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14178#msg14178)
-Wiring clean up, finishing up the chassis work (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14179#msg14179)
-Cam swap and buttoning up the motor (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14180#msg14180)
-Clutch #3 (LS6 w/ fidanza flywheel) (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14181#msg14181)
-Seven Not Stock, Steaks and Beer (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14182#msg14182)
The Rebuild, Part 2
-Speedo functional (cable-X) (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14183#msg14183)
-Idiot light relocation / extra gauges finished (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14184#msg14184)
-Notes on Half Shafts (929 etc) (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14185#msg14185)
-Rebuilding an S4 T2 diff (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14187#msg14187)
-Setting pinion angle & more rear end support (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14188#msg14188)
-Head gasket annoyances (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14191#msg14191)
Winter Mods
-List o' accomplishments (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14192#msg14192)
-Rebuilt rockers (again) (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14193#msg14193)
-Header wrap (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14194#msg14194)
-Heat shrink hose clamps (Gates PowerGrip) (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14195#msg14195)
-Accusump install (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14196#msg14196)-5th point of belts (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14197#msg14197)
-Brake pedal brace (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14198#msg14198)
New intake tract
-Hood pins (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14199#msg14199)
-Hood shocks (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14200#msg14200)
-Move/replace coolant overflow (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14201#msg14201)
-Relay relocation (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14202#msg14202)
-Cutting and fit checks (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14203#msg14203)
-Intake Tube/MAF Interface (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14204#msg14204)
-Shroud (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14205#msg14205)
-Wiring the new MAF (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14206#msg14206)
-Intake results (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14207#msg14207)
-LS7 MAF reference material (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14208#msg14208)
Autocrossing
-A good day (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14209#msg14209)
-Swaybars: my experience (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14210#msg14210)
-A few great pictures (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14211#msg14211)
Mazfest 2009:
-Best RX7 or Classic (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14212#msg14212)
Lingering Gremlins:
-Self exciting alternators suck... voltage (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14213#msg14213)
-Clutch problems becoming frustrating (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14214#msg14214)
Make it Handle, Make it Brake (2.0):
-DIY struct tower bar (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14216#msg14216)
-Steering wheel modification (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14217#msg14217)
-Clutch #4 , Monster Stage 4 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14218#msg14218)
-Rear suspension: sphericals and toe links (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14219#msg14219)
-Front suspension: AWR needle bearings (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14220#msg14220)
-Spring rate change: 6/5 to 8/6 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14221#msg14221)
-Driving Impressions (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14222#msg14222)
-Custom S5 tow hook (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14223#msg14223)
-Powder Coating Track Wheels (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14224#msg14224)
-Mandeville Big Brakes version 2.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14225#msg14225)
-Speed Bleeders (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14226#msg14226)
-Rebuilding calipers (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14227#msg14227)
-Adjustable prop valve (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14228#msg14228)
-Brake Results (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg14229#msg14229)
PARTS LIST LAST UPDATED: 5/25/07
My latest pass at a comprehensive master parts list:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/v8rx7pg1.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/v8rx7pg2.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/v8rx7pg3.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/v8rx7pg4.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/v8rx7pg5.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/v8rx7pg6.jpg)
Note: some pars above are exclusive to my situation (missing bolts because I'm doing this the piecemeal route etc.)
I'll try to include links to other threads I found helpful as I go along. This forum's been a great help to me over the years. I started researching feasibility here. I bought my car/engine from an occasional poster back when we were on TorqueCentral. I can't even count how much advice and inspiration this place has offered me. As such this thread is my way of giving back.
I've had the car up and running since December 06. I did my swap while being a full time mechanical engineer, a grad school student (MBA), I'd just moved, I was a relative newly wed, and I didn't have a garage of my own to work in. With all that the swap took me 3.5 months and probably about 300 hours to get it the way I wanted it (at least for the first pass at my build). I ran into a lot of weirdness using the vette ls1 and mixing and matching pieces from 98s and others years. Still, I have no regrets and the car is everything I hoped it would be. A huge thank you to Dave and Cherrie Ellis, amazing folks who let me use their backyard and basement to do the build. Blessings to you both and good luck to all who follow here...
Before:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/myfc3sengineMedium.jpg)
After (and in the middle of relocating the brake prop valve for the 2nd time):
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3666Medium.JPG)
After 2.0 (new intake tract)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0706Medium.JPG)
Regards,
Joel
Parts list enclosed in zipped excel format below... If you share it with others please give me the credit.
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Where I started:
I was always a gear head but I really started playing with cars in college. First car of my own was a 1989 Acura Integra. After tinkering for a year I came to the conclusion that I was using the wrong chassis because the car was kind of heavy and lacked aftermarket support. Instead I bought a 1992 Civic that had a JDM engine swap (B16A for the Honda folks here). I pulled it all apart and swapped over USDM bits and pieces to make it CA smog compliant. I drove that car for almost 5 years. Rebuilt the trans myself, added a Quaife LSD, played with nitrous (and screwed a few things up<--I stay away from the giggle juice these days). Ended up have a JG Engine Dyanmics head good for 12,000 rpm and a forged bottom end. After all that the car still only made about 170 whp, but it was so light it was a ton of fun.
I wanted a serious sports car so after starting my first real job I bought a 1994 RX7 that was running stock twins at 14 psi and had all the M2 Performance goodies. (Same engine setup as the Sport Compact Car project car (http://www.modified.com/projectcars/0005_mazda_rx_7_part_9/index.html)). It was good for 315 rwhp and was everything a BPU FD should be. Problem was that I was only 25 and the car was just too damn pretty. I found myself checking every time I parked under a tree whether it would drop crap on me. I didn?t really understand the rotary so a hard time driving it hard because I just didn?t trust it (despite the fact EVERYTHING had been gone through.)
I still had the Civic and I didn?t really need two cars so put the FD up for sale to help fund my wedding. It sold at my asking price ($19,900) and I never had a single problem with the car. In fact the only things I ever did to it were just maintenance replacements. Interestingly, the FD sold on the same day I discovered by beloved Civic had been stolen (but heck, I got offered my asking price so I wasn?t going to refuse). I went from 2 cars to no cars in 14 hours less than a month prior to getting married.
Anyways, I futzed around in truck for a year or so. Started riding motorcycles which are rad in their own way but I always really missed having a small, fun to drive car. So like any good engineer I sat down to list all the things I wanted in a project car.
-Rear wheel drive
-Not so pretty that I would be afraid to flog the thing
-A fairly large but fairly stock motor to make smog easier
-Minimal amenities in a light stiff chassis
-Something with a bit of work already done to it (suspension etc) so I wasn?t starting from scratch.
That was literally it. I wasn?t going to be beholden to any make or model. I was just poking around online when I found TorqueCentral?s v8rx7 sub forum. I was immediately sold on the idea and decided to do an FC so I could really use the thing. I started reading everything I could when a few months later I stumbled across a smoking deal in the classifieds. It?ll tell you something about the girl I married that we relocated our camping trip to Monterey CA that year to drive all the way to Dallas TX and buy a car that summer.
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Some History on the Car
Some deals are just so good that you?re not going to haggle. In this case a gent in Texas was unloading a bunch of toys to fund a house purchase. Basics:
-1990 Mazda RX7 GTU
-58,000 original miles on a perfect running NA rotary
-Tenzo R bucket seats
-Cage w/ swing-out door beams
-Sparco club harnesses
-Tein Flex suspension w/ EDFC
-Two sets of wheels (18s and 15s)
-Spare T2 hood (the one thing I never did manage to get home)
-A ton of stereo gear (multiple capacitors, three deep cycle batteries etc)
-The entire tub was wrapped in DynaMat Extreme
He?d been planning on doing this swap himself so it also came with some goodies on the side:
-98 vette LS1 long block
-Grannies mounting equipment
-An ?03 Cobra diff
It really was a fire sale so I only paid $5,000 for the lot. That said, I was BLOWN away how much house you could get for the dollar outside Texas so I?m not feeling too bad. Martin also had a stack of sportbikes and other trick stuff so it?s not like he was hurting on hobbies.
The car as I bought it:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/myfc3s%28Medium%29.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG1925%28Medium%29.JPG)
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Early Changes:
I bought the car with the intent of doing this swap but I was just starting a Master?s of business so I figured I?d just do a bunch of research and collect parts for a couple years while I drove the car N/A.
I sold off a bunch of the stereo gear (I?m already missing hearing due to time in a machine shop). Some of it ended up in my wife?s car.
Changed the harnesses to a proper cam-lock setup.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG1926%28Medium%29.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG2595%28Medium%29.JPG)
Wide throttle pedal so for easier heel and toe shifting.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG2596%28Medium%29.JPG)
Ditched the fog lights.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG2119%28Medium%29.JPG)
Dropped down to the spare 15? wheels & removed a bunch of tint (windshield header, both side windows, 1 of 2 layers from hatch).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG2594%28Medium%29.JPG)
I pulled off the factory rear spoiler and then that was it for a while? A year later I started to have a few clutch issues and the ?build bug? was starting to bite me pretty hard so I thought I?d get started a bit sooner than I planned.
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Cage Details:
One thing that sold me on this particular car was the pre-existence of a nicely done roll bar. If I had built it myself I might not have done the swing outs because I rarely use them. However they're nice to have when the wife's in skirt or for the occasional passenger who's less mobile than most.
6 point roll bar with swing-out door beams
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2595Medium.JPG)
No strut tower bar needed back here
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2602bMedium.JPG)
I had to section the panels on each side that housed the former belt retractors.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2648Medium.JPG)
Lower door bar connection is welded to angle plates that catch both the floor and door sills.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2650Medium.JPG)
Best part is how tight the run is to the body.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2652Medium.JPG)
Cage was built by
Machine Shop, Lewisville, Texas, TX // Meyer Enterprises (http://www.mfgquote.com/profiles/MeyerEnterprises-185322.html). I did spend a good amount of time trimming all the body panels to match the cage. I had all the panels but they all came loose and uninstalled. I also did the painting of the welds that came bare.
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MazdaSpeed Lip
I was still lusting after FD?s so I decided to see if both keep by FC envy in check and jazz things up just a little bit with a nice front lip. Plus it should help my cooling so I figured why not.
This car was a big piece of my inspiration for the MazdaSpeed front lip.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/greenFC.jpg)
Lip is a MazdaSpeed replica I bought from Corksport (http://corksport.com/store/category/4ltr/2rx-exterior.html). I wanted something to make the nose a hair more aggressive (basically to keep my FD envy in check ;) ). The mold they used didn't align real well so I had to bondo and sand an 1/8" deep seem along most of the upper surface and both sides.
I firmly believe that wet sanding is therapeutic. You just rub something until it?s flat and make sure you use guides to keep it even.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2796Medium.JPG)
Toss in a bit a color matched paint and clear coat and I'm happy with it. It's not quite as low as some of the body kits either so it doesn't scrape most places if I'm careful. Pic from a while later but you get the idea.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3343Medium.JPG)
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Getting Started:
What you need to know:
-If you have any mechanical inclinations, you can do this.
-A good place to work is huge for an undertaking like this. I did it in a backyard under an easy up but in terms of space I?d plan on room for the car on 4 jackstands plus ~8? feet clear in front of the car for engine install (and open garage door works), plus a laydown area about the same area as the car itself for parts.
-For tools required see post #1 as they?re in my list.
Budget for FC:
-$2,000 for a clean shell (avoid rust buckets and get yourself something nice)
-$4.500 for a good condition complete LS1 pullout (avoid the piecemeal route if possible)
-$500 for engine mounting
-$600 in cooling stuff
-$300 for driveshaft stuff
-$1000 in misc (lots of nuts bolts etc)
Then add in money for whatever additions you need. For example:
-$150 for better brakes setup (5 lug, 4 piston front, vented rears)
-$400 for a t2 diff and axles
-$1000 in wheels
-$600 in tires (traction can be scary on less than sticky street 255s, ask me how I know)
-$1000 in coil overs
-$600 for an Accusump (not optional IMO if you want to track it).
-$1000 for a cam/pushrods/springs/retainers
-$250 in a rocker rebuild
-$150 for a ported oil pump
etc
Note, you can definitely save money by buying parts cars, but I consider that just like having a side job. It takes time and effort to buy and sell parts to ?save? money so consider that when budgeting for the swap.
FD is similar, the biggest differences:
-$6,000 chassis (for a clean one w/ full interior, again don?t scrimp here)
-$1,500 mounting hardware
-$1,500 for cooling (go Samberg, it?s worth it).
Oh and any interior parts your missing are going to cost you dearly so pick a good starting point.
Time required to do the swap:
This varies but I planned on 6 weeks, I had most of the parts when I started and it ended up taking me 3.5 months (for the first pass). I?d say I putt 300 hours into the original build but I was definitely going slow and learning as I went. I could probably rebuild my car myself in about a couple weeks now but you get the idea. I have a project manager friend who says he always starts with his best estimate and then multiplies by PI (3.1415926). That sounds about right to me.
At a minimum you don?t want to jump into this with an end deadline (IE I?m leaving for school in 4 weeks). It?s just not good planning, you?ll kill yourself to get .
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LSX vs. Rotary Comparison
-Disclaimer: these are my opinions and your mileage may vary? I ditched the rotary initially because I didn?t understand it and wanted to try something else. There are folks who?ve gotten rotaries to live long happy lives, but I never trusted mine and that decreased the fun factor a lot. That said, I?ve been REALLY happy with the v8 and I don?t see ever going back.
-I see three valid reasons to stay rotary. Note, these ARE all valid reasons, but none apply to me.
1) You're sponsored and Mazda won't let you run pistons.
2) You're an all out racer and minute differences in polar moment of inertia matter to you.
3) You're a purist AKA true believe. I?ve got quite a few good friends in this category? Some folks just want to prove they can (IE those who drag race Yugos) and some folks just like what they like and don?t care about reliably, or going fast for minimum $$ (IE vintage Ferrari owners).
-If you can find someone local, a test ride is a good idea, just so you know what you're in for. That said an LS1 makes for stiff competition in terms of outright power. For a rotary to make the same power as a heads/cam LS1 generally requires either a big single turbo or a 20B. In the former case the torque curve of an NA v8 is much easier to drive than a rotary making similar numbers because you have a flatter curve and no big ramp at spool. If you were inclined to try a 20B, maintenance gets expensive quickly and the rest of the powertrain starts to suffer, particularly transmissions (the one thing torque isn't good for).
-Since I mentioned trans you should know that the t56 is a brute, shift feel is terrible, and it?s one of the few downsides of this setup but it's easily managed and offers few surprises. That said, the RX7 trans aren?t exactly s2000 trans caliber in the feel department either so there just aren?t many great options for big HP cars.
-The second trans issue is mostly a point of annoyance. The slave cylinder is inside the bell housing and clutch dust does a number to it so lots of folks have had sticky clutch issues. There?s a good vid about the issue and maintenance etc on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbsy0LjUvE#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbsy0LjUvE#ws) The best solution IMHO is to run a non-organic clutch. Sintered iron and/or kevlar simply don't give off the same kinds of dust.
-The LSx motors do have weaknesses. First and foremost beware the oil system! This is the number one thing that seems to have bit a lot of folks hard. A ported oil pump and a baffled pan (see www.ImprovedRacing.com (http://www.ImprovedRacing.com)) are good ideas. However, in order to really address drain-back limitations the best answer is a dry sump. This is usually a budget breaker but at minimum an accusump will be required if you plan to track your car. I blew a motor prior to going accusump myself. It's happened to friends too. You can overfill the pan by a full quart at a track day but you?re still being risky and I don?t recommend it.
-A few other basic bolt ones that seem to be popular: LS2 timing chain, Harland Sharp rebuilt rockers, PCV system from an LS6. You should be able to search on any of the above and find info on this stuff.
-OK, back to the overt comparison? Once you've completed the swap LSX maintenance is cheap compared to the rotary. No 110 octane fuel requirements. Fuel goes further too. Plentiful spare parts. It's just easy to live with.
-Quality rotary rebuilds are sometimes hard to come by and the cause of failures can be elusive. The rotary itself may have few moving parts but critical failure modes are high. Tuning is critical, turbo maint is critical, heat management is critical, proper fuel is critical, proper vacuum is critical etc. One little thing goes a bit wrong and you're hosed.
-If you really want a fair comparison call and talk to Charlie Shatzen at Mazcare in Marietta, GA (770) 859-9643. He's supports both rotary and v8 swapped track cars and is intimately familiar with the pros and cons. Plus he's a good guy to talk to and shoots straight. If you do give him a ring tell him Joel Payne says hello.
-In everything else I think the v8 is superior. Trans I'd call a wash. I know too many folks who've blown up FD transmissions to say the the minor upside in feel is worthwhile.
-Joel
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Other things I wish I would have known up front
I thought I?d mention a few of the various ?gotcha? moments that burned me. Beware that the good old General of GM changes many of details between various model years. Don?t assume things will fit unless you found someone who did EXACTLY what you planned to do.
98 heads/coil packs/fuel rail covers
-I upgraded to a set of lq9 ported heads and ran into several things.
-98 spark plug coil packs bolt directly to their respective valve covers NOT to a bracket THEN to the covers like the rest of the years.
-98 valve covers have a different bolt pattern that they attach to the heads with (around the perimeter rather than the normal 4 bolt up the center style). 98 valve covers
-The oil filler cap on the 98 valve covers doesn?t come with or require the use the oil filler riser tube (GM #1255-9505). You?ll need this or the cap will interfere with the front-most coil.
-The 98 style coil packs can be used with 99 brackets but one coil on each bank has to be flipped over to mount properly. It also makes your wiring loom rest with some weird lengths but it?s only a cosmetic issue.
-There are TWO types of coils that came on the 99-02 ls1. I believe the split is between 00 and 01. Coil pack brackets DO NOT mix and match so be sure you have the correct bracket for the correct year.
-98 fuel rail covers obviously have two inputs for the ?return? style fuel rail (vs only one hole for all other years.) However the studs that the fuel rail cover clips into down by the coil packs are located in different spots.
-The worst head problem I ran across was that you can?t use GM?s multi layer steel (MLS) head gaskets with heads originally intended for use with graphite gaskets. There?s a whole post about that here. (http://??)
-To be fair everything I?ve played with are the cathedral port style heads. Similar caution should be planned when jumping into the L76, L92 type square heads.
Corvette accessories vs F-body vs GTO:
-All belts sit ~1? closer to the block than do the Camaro/GTO counterparts. Generally this is a good thing especially for fan and radiator clearance but the high alternator location may require trimming of hood braces.
-A Camaro alternator will not fit in the Vette bracket nor will vice versa work.
-Because the corvette harmonic balancer lives ~1? closer to the block re-routing the sway bar becomes a pain. I bought Granny?s spacers and was forced to shim down an extra 3/8? beyond the 3/4? originally intended. That?s using an ASP under drive pulley. The AC belt on that ASP is a 10% reduction making for a 6 5/8? OD vs the stock 7 1/4? for the AC portion where the rubbing would occur with both tires simultaneously loaded (speed bump etc).
-The corvette AC compressor cannot be used with Granny?s ls1 adaptor plate mounts. This should not affect those with f-body accessories or those with Hinson mounts. Again this is due to the 1? difference in spacing. Assuming the Camaro compressor is the same size it would miss the mount by 3/8? vs. the 5/8? interference I found.
-My Corvette intake manifold didn?t have the threaded metal inserts needed so you can thread a normal throttle cable stop into it. If you need to ditch drive by wire you?ll want to be sure your intake manifold was from an f-body instead of the Vette (or buy and epoxy in the inserts.
LS6 intake manifold upgrade
-won?t clear the ?steam tube? coolant crossover lines above the valley cover. I trimmed enough ribs off the bottom with my angle grinder that I was able to make it work. However I eventually switched the LS6 PCV and this requires LS6 steam tubes so I had to redo it anyways.
Hardware
-I received incorrect bolts on several kit parts. This might sound stupid but double and triple check your hardware before you put it all together? Danzan and I wasted about 6 hours fighting motor mounts only to discover we got sent m10x1.5 bolts rather than the needed 7/16-14. The mounting plates were sloppy enough that the m10 actually fed in nice by hand but would ?strip? without much force.
Rod Bolts:
ARP rod bolts required ?resizing rod ends?. The objection being that the clamping force of the bolts can cause the big end of the con rod to deform by enough to cause unhappy bearing wear.) The first time I ran across this I sent my ARPs back and bought Katech?s instead. Other members of the board have talked to reputable LS1 shops that said resizing was unnecessary regardless of whether ARP bolts were used or not. In hindsight, I believe this is simply an error in the instructions and I used ARPs on motor build 2.0. Resizing rod ends means shaving down the surfaces of the two halves of the con rod. This is impossible with ?cracked rods? because you?d lose the fracture surface.
Tools compare to list
-You need jacks and hoists and all the usual breaker bars obviously
-I?ve been forced to use both metric and SAE taps more times on this job than I?ll care to admit.
-An angle grinder and/or sawzall is nearly mandatory as well.
-3/16 tubing bender came in handy several times on hydraulic stuff as well.
-Load leveler is awesome for dropping the engine down with trans on it.
-I haven?t found a way to change the rear main seal on the t56 without the GM specialty tool either so I may eventually break down and buy that.
Wiring
-You?ll be a lot happier trying to route the harness through the stock firewall grommet if you lengthen the connectors for the sensors behind the head (MAP, cam position). While you?re back there there?s a nipple that will need to be plugged for most folks. At first glance I thought this was just redundant to the hole in the throttle plate, but had I left this open it would have made for one hell of an (unmetered by the MAF) vacuum leak.
-Pay someone else to do your harness mods. It?s just not worth the headache and the learning curve is too steep.
Motor Install Methodology:
-Way too many folks have smashed MAP sensors installing engines with intake manifold in place. Do yourself a favor and do your install with the manifold off. This gives you the added advantage that the m8 bolts for the valley cover work great with a load leveler.
?Don?t bolt your load leveler to the back of the block. You can?t get the bolts back out with the engine against the firewall.
-FC?s can have motors installed from above or from below. If from above a load leveler is just about required.
-With Granny?s mounts you can put a light layer of grease on the mating surface of the mount to help slide the motor into place. You?ll also want to double check the width of the cradle as some have been found warped. If it?s too narrow the engine sits high and won?t find the holes. The inverse is true if it sits too low.
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[Ed note: Jumping back into 2006 with what I wrote back then?]
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List updated with present progress. Swap starts in <30 days and my living room is starting to look a bit warehouse-ish.
I found a source for great deals on stock GM parts: Dal Slabaugh (no affiliation to me). I ran into him through Brent Franker's F-body links page:
Brent's F-Body Links Page (http://www.bfranker.badz28.com/fbody/links.htm)
As an example, F-body oil pans are becoming really hard to come by. Too many folks jumping on the ls1 bandwagon. The last pan on ebay sold for $202 with shipping. Dal quoted me $167.82 for a new pan. Pickup and windage tray would be $28.49 and $27.29 respectively. That's CHEAP for unused new goods.
Dal can be reached at 877-448-5451 (direct phone)
direct fax: 330-658-4065
email: lockitup@ohio.net
business hours 4:00 am to 5:00 pm, eastern standard time zone
phone hours 6:00 am to 2:00 pm eastern standard time zone
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It's begun...
Engine Build Progress
I'm adding a heads/cam package and I felt clever for restraining the engine from turning over while breaking the main pulley free. (I've been defeated on two front wheel drive cars in the past) No air tools required when you can just strap a healthy piece of angle iron to the crankshaft via flywheel bolts.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2869Medium.JPG)
Provided you have all the oil drained out the engine is much easier to work on when upside down.
First up timing chain:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2875Medium.JPG)
98 ls1 timing chain on the left, ls2 timing chain on the right. It?s a little beefier, but the pulleys are all the same so you just remove the oil pump and three bolts holding the big sprocket to the cam and it?s a direct replacement. Check the both sprockets for wear (any perceptible asymmetry to the teeth means sprocket replacement). Mine were fine.
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Cam install?
Yet another reason I like to work on the motor upside down. You just turn over the cam a few times and all the lifters push out of the way. Then a cam change is as simple as removing the retainer plate and carefully sliding it out of the motor. Use three spare bolts in the end of the cam to help you manipulate the thing.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2876Medium.JPG)
stock cam on the bottom, lunati 243/252 0.595/0.595 on top
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2877Medium.JPG)
notice that the lobes aren't much taller (it wouldn't clear the bearings), rather the base circle has to be smaller.
The lubrication system is one of the weaknesses of the LS1 so given I was into the motor this far I decided to spring for a ported ls6 oil pump.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2882Medium.JPG)
stock 98 oil pump up top, TSP ported ls6 pump on the bottom
[Ed note: when I blew a motor I took the stock oil pump and ported it myself via a dremel. More on that here[/ULRL]]. (http://??)
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Rotary equipment removal
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2910Medium.JPG)
load leveler's really are a God send...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2914Medium.JPG)
I think I should have asked more than $400 for my 13b and trans with only 65k original miles. It sold on 'da club' in less than 2 hours.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2918Medium.JPG)
My engine bay's never looked so good...
So what do you keep? In terms of wiring you need the entire driver?s side harness intact. On the passenger side, you need to keep the wipers intact and possibly ABS (assuming your car came with it). The vast majority of the passenger side harness is engine only so it can all go way.
Cheers y'all,
Joel
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I finished buttoning up the bottom end yesterday and thought I'd share a few insights...
Rod Bolts & Vette to F-body Oil Pan Conversion
I'd already purchased ARP pro rod bolts but their instructions mentioned you always need to resize rods. It wasn't a term I was familiar with so it was off to the internet. After a little research it turns out that the ARP bolts (and especially the ARP pros which are longer/heavier than stock) could possibly distort the big end of the con rod by a thousandth or so and cause undesirable bearing wear. Some reputable LS1 shops claim it doesn't matter but I wasn't going to risk an engine when I needed to get this done fast and wasn't finding the answers I was looking for. [ED Note: FYI, the final answer was that it?s IMPOSSIBLE to resize cracked rods as it would requiring shaving down the facture line, this is simply an error in ARP?s instructions, however many folks on here ?including myself--have run ARP Pros with no issues]
The other company that sells well respected rod bolts is Katech. They're a bit pricy at $152.xx vs the $89 or so for the ARPs. However Katech advertises that no resizing is necessary and their rod bolts just drop in. Lingenfelter Vette's use these bolts so I pulled the trigger. All I'm trying to do here is address of a few of the inherent weaknesses of the LS1. I'm not looking to do a full on blueprinting job.
Here's my install:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2924Medium.JPG)
After I first yanked off the batwing oil pan: showing vette windage tray and pickup tupe (or "crankshaft oil deflector" and "oil screen" if you prefer the proper GM speak). Icemark from "Da Club" would be so proud. Oh, when you're taking off the windage tray the nuts are all "deformed metal" so they drag until they're almost to the top. It's like a nyloc nut but with intentional metal to metal contact.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2926Medium.JPG)
More old vs new. There are several versions of stock rod bolts. Some use little additive sleeves called ferrules that must be removed if present to use the Katechs. Do a bit of searching on LS1tech and you'll find the info. Note, these are the same length it's just how they're resting in my hand that creates the illusion of variance.
This is the first time I've played with "cracked rods." Each rod is built whole with a notch on the inside (not shown). The lower half is then broken off with a sharp impact and the fracture surface becomes the seam. This is why you add one rod bolt at a time: to make sure you don't mess up any alignments and keep the bearings where they're supposed to be.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2929Medium.JPG)
The new bolt is only hand tight here so you can see the fracture seam open up with no tension.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2930Medium.JPG)
With the bolt torqued (lube on threads and under head, torque to 30 ft-lbs, loosen, 30 ft-lbs, loosen, 50 ft-lbs per Katech directions) a bit of oil gets driven out of the seam.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2931Medium.JPG)
wipe off the oil and the seam is just about invisible. This is why QC departments use dye-penetrant for crack identification.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2932Medium.JPG)
Install finished. You can reinsert the used main pulley bolt and use it to turn the engine over to keep whatever rod you're working on to the top.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2935Medium.JPG)
Camaro windage tray and pickup. When I first bought the part I thought they gave me one for a v6 (only 3 voids for crankshaft). I didn't realize the windage tray was only 3/4 length and that's why the alternate pickup tube is required. It's not just the direction around the pan, there's also a change in profile for the pickup. If you're swapping from vette or GTO setup you can cut your existing windage tray down to size, but be warned it takes some trimming.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2936Medium.JPG)
Here's the pan. Looking at this from the outside suddenly the 3/4 windage tray makes sense. I bought new from Dal Slabaugh (see above in thread) because there's been a scarcity of f-body pan's on ebay and the last two I saw sold for ~$190 each. If you do go the new route it comes with a gasket, internal baffle, low level sensor, and all bolts. Windage and pickup sold separately.
I also added a new front end seal (goes around the main pulley) to try to keep this motor looking pretty. Be warned that both front end and oil pan are alignment critical. I just used a straight edge to be sure all surfaces were flat. Also if I had to do it over again I probably would have bought the longer main pulley bolt. As it was, I threw the pulley out to sit in the sun and got it good and hot (loosen the press fit). I was able to tap the pulley on about 1/4" using a rubber mallet and then the stock bolt was just long enough to pull it in the rest of the way. ARP balancer bolts are longer for ease of installation.
Next up: Prepping the engine bay and/or trying out the new heads and checking piston to valve (p-to-v) clearances.
Joel
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Piston to Valve Clearance:
The four stroke engine cycle is: intake, compression, explosion, exhaust... If you?ve made it to this forum I assume you know this. For two of these events the valves are opening/closing with the piston close to top dead center. During intake, the intake valve opens right as the piston starts to lower (thereby creating vacuum and drawing in air and fuel). Then during the exhaust stroke the piston chases the exhaust valve closed (shoving burnt fuel out). Generally speaking from a power perspective it's a good thing do open the intake valve as soon as possible and leave the exhaust open for as long as you can.
One common misconception I found was that lift has practically nothing to do piston to valve clearance. Your valve spring might not be able to handle 2" travel of a valve but theoretically you could have a valve chase a piston all the way down. It's duration that gets people into trouble. In addition to more valve overlap, aggressive cams try to push the envelope in when you can open and close valves and how quickly.
Why do we care? The problem comes if you don't maintain sufficient clearance between pistons and valves which from everything I've read is 0.080" on intake and 0.100" on exhaust. Now I didn't really know where these magic numbers came from but I at least have a theory as to why they're needed.
Before we get to that lets talk procedure. Generally folks take one of two methods when checking piston to valve clearance: clay bar or dial indicator/feeler gauges.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3002Medium.JPG)
For the clay bar method you lay a strip of modeling clay ~0.20-0.25" thick on the surface of the piston (head off), reinstall head, spin the crank over at least 2 times, remove the head and see how big a dent you made in the clay. For dial indicator method you replace a pair of your normal valve springs with checker springs (sometimes also called test springs). Then you find top dead center and manually drive the valve in further than the rocker would until it touches the piston. Check springs are weak so this isn't a problem. You then measure how far the valve had to travel either with a dial indicator or with feeler gauges between the tip of rocker and end of valve all while turning the crank over a degree or two at a time.
The complication comes because of the hydraulic lifters. Hydraulic lifters are by nature a two piece design with an internal spring. BUT this spring has a lower spring rate than do the valve springs. Therefore if you turn the crank the lifter will compress before the valve spring does. This sucks because the valve doesn't move in and out normally and clearance can't be verified. When your engine is running normally there's an oil port on the side of each lifter and internal diaphragm such that oil pressure assists the lifters in opening the valves so lifter collapse isn't an issue. What IS an issue is that as you rev higher the lifters can "pump up" to the point the valve opens further than usual hence the clearance you need...
If you ever take a lifter out of your engine it'll be fully extended with the pushrod seat all the way out to the stops. Looks like this:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3001Medium.JPG)
This is not where your engine normally needs it. Your pushrods are a touch longer than the spacing between seat and rocker so the lifter starts with some nominal compression. This is preload and it's generally good to be in the range of 0.020 to 0.060" of lifter preload. The lifter actually stays in the middle of its possible travel and the oil displaces any and all slack in the system so the lifters run quiet and smooth. Pushrod length dictates preload. Period. Only if you have adjustable rockers and/or shim rocker height will the "wipe pattern" on the end of the valve change. A final note on pushrods: I ran into a tech article that warned that crappy pushrods can cause all kinds of problems because the shaft itself introduces another spring into the system (think pole vaulter). This is especially true as you start getting into stiffer valve springs. That made sense to me so I'll be running comp chromoly pushrods.
Hydraulic lifters mean you CANNOT do the clay bar method without somehow making the lifter dominate the valve spring. You can buy and use and couple of solid lifters (which will dominate) or you can install check springs with the clay bar to ensure the lifter stays extended.
My route? I went and bought the check springs and used feeler gauges. The way I thought about it I didn't want to take a head on and off twice if I didn't need to.
1) installed head, all lifters where they're supposed to be
2) installed check springs in place of the big valve springs
3) used adjustable length pushrods to give zero valve lash (which by definition means fully extended lifters aka zero preload)
4) found top dead center
5) checked clearances for about 20 deg before and after TDC.
A couple pics of the process:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2999Medium.JPG)
Cleaning the gasket surface with a plastic scraper (the graphite is ANNOYING as all get out to get truly flat. I probably spent 2 hours at this.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3080Medium.JPG)
Used head bolts with a flat ground in them...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3081Medium.JPG)
Are great for cleaning out the threads in your head (props to LS1tech for the tip).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3078Medium.JPG)
My modded valve spring compressing tool. This was made for studs in either 5/16 or 3/8" and the ls1 uses m8 bolts. What to do? Make a shackle. I actually trimmed it a bit more to get the travel I needed.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3100Medium.JPG)
valve spring undone
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3101Medium.JPG)
check springs installed
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3103Medium.JPG)
stack of feeler gauges. The piston is touching the valve here.
The bad news. I only had 0.076" on intake and 0.070 on exhaust. Less than 1/32nd of an inch screwing me over. Then again this was on a 243/252 duration cam which is pretty damn big so I knew it was going to be close. For comparison the T-rex is something like 242/249.
Options if you don't have the clearance specified? Normally you have 3...
-Adjust cam timing (not only am I loathe to go buy and aftermarket adjustable set, this actually won't work for me because if I make the exhaust better the intake gets worse and I already failed both)
-Notch the pistons (supposedly not too hard you basically insert a cutting bit shaped like a valve in the normal valve spot and cut to a known depth. As mentioned I didn't want to take my heads back off and I didn't know how you'd control depth and therefore weight removal). [Editor note: Contact Kevin Doe as he had a good write-up on how prior to the forum crash]
-Run a different cam. This is me. I have one Futral F13 (230/232) now on order. It'll still be a medium aggressive cam, but should be a lot easier to live with.
FYI for those feeling hardcore, you don't actually have to use adjustable pushrods. As long as you can figure out what the normal preload of the lifters are you know how much further than normal the valve gets pushed in toward the piston. (As I understand it using check springs w/ a stock pushrod is exactly as if the oil pressure maxed out how far the lifter could extend.) You can check preload by using starting with your test rocker loose w/ a normal valve spring and the lifter facing cam such that you?re not on a lobe. Be sure you give the lifter enough time to extend. Tighten the rocker down until there's no play in the pushrod but the rocker bolt is not yet tight to iron. Then use a straightedge at the valve cover elevation and mark a thin line in the pushrod. Tighten the rocker the rest of the way down which should compress the lifter (the normal spring rate dominates). Mark another line and measure the difference, that?s preload.
Minor epiphany: Preload is supposed to be 0.020 to 0.060. If we take the max amount the lifter could pump up 0.060 and translate this into valve motion (times 1.7 for the rocker ratio) we get 0.102 which is almost exactly the 0.100 we're required for our worst case scenario exhaust valve. I?m not sure it?s where the numbers come from as there?s definitely thermal expansion to consider, but it seems possible. You can do this same calc and avoid buying adjustable pushrods if you don't mind a bit of extra math.
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Upgraded Rockers
Finally a note on rockers. The only real weakness of the stock rockers is that they sometimes spill their bearings. A real roller tip rocker may be a hair more efficient but they're also heavier and harder to control. Plus they won't clear the stock valve covers and I don't want to run spacers for fear of hood clearance difficulties. My solution was to send my rockers off for the Harland Sharp rebuild. It's $250 for the service but the pivots are burly. Contact Nate at nastyperformance.com if you want them sent over.
Here's the result:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG2997Medium.JPG)
The pivot assembly is actually the same one used in Harland's full-on roller rockers. You can see a good side shot of the pivot and circ clip above in the pic with feeler gauges.
-Joel
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P to V Questions and Weirdness
So now I'm confused. I installed the Futral F13 cam last night. This is supposed to a known combination so I?d be good to go. I went ahead and checked piston to valve clearance again as I still had the checker springs installed.
1) the hydraulic lifters behave differently now. Before they definitely dominated the check springs and p to v was pretty easy to check with feeler gauges. Now the lifters have some give and feel noticeably soft. Is it possible for a lifter to kind of "freeze" up? [Ed. note: yes it is... but it's pretty easy to tell when they travel bottoms out at full extension of the lifter so testing is still pretty easy.]
2) I was still able to check p to v it just took a little more effort to be sure the lifters were extended all the way. Results: 0.065 on intake, 0.130 exhaust. So I have lots of extra clearance on the exhaust side but fail the intake... My first guess was that I might be a tooth off on the timing chain but I've checked the dot alignment a dozen times from various angles and I'm convinced that's right. I could move to an adjustable timing set and thereby dial the exhaust closer and intake further away, I'm just getting really tired of screwing with this and finding work arounds to get it done.
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Fast forward a couple of days:
Adjustable Timing Chain (P to V solved)
I swapped in my Futral F13 cam and was frustrated to note I still didn?t have the piston to valve clearance I wanted to see. You need 0.080 and 0.100 intake and exhaust. The F13?s supposed to be 0.080 and 0.110 as per the folks at Futral and I was seeing 0.065 and 0.130. It?s just like the timing was not where it was supposed to be. The final answer was to pick up an adjustable timing set. The kit I'm using is comp cams single roller part number 3513KT. The crankshaft pulley has three keyways that are basically -4, 0, and plus 4 degrees. The cam pulley has an eccentric pin you can advance or retard another 2 degrees. This means you get a total allowance of +/-6 degrees that's infinitely adjustable. A word to the wise: don't try this job without a healthy assortment of pullers or you'll never get the stock one off.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3139Medium.JPG)
Reinstall is easier as I just doubled up the pulleys (see above) and used the harmonic balancer pulley bolt to drive it home. The engine was one again restrained from turning over using my trusty piece of angle iron.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3140Medium.JPG)
With the camshaft retarded by ~1.75 degrees I measured 0.082 and 0.109. Being accurate within a thou or two felt pretty dang good. CAMSHAFT MADNESS SOLVED!
Soooo... the motors all buttoned up except for pushrods and valve covers (I changed heads and the different in bolt pattern on the 98s bit me. I knew the coils bolted directly to the covers but not that the cover pattern itself was different.) I just got the covers, my pushrods seem to be lost in transit. I can do that after the fact so I?m ready to drop in the motor.
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Chassis prep begins:
4-piston brake swap:
Simple and clean. That's kinda been the goal for my swap. Do the basic stuff to address the known weaknesses of both chassis and engine. That way you end up with something strong but dead-nuts reliable.
I?m starting with a GTU so my car originally came with the single piston front brakes and solid disk rears, albeit in 5 lug. I bought a rolling chassis for parts that had the 4 piston upgrades front and a complete T2 S4 rear. Not that when folks refer to 4-piston brakes they came on a variety of cars and this means changing calipers up front (rotors are identical) and both rotors and calipers in back (rotors are vented).
Since everything was apart I decided to do a bit of cleanup work and paint the new calipers. It looks like the most hardcore paint you can buy short of powder coating is by a company called G2. They sell enamels in multiple colors that come with a lifetime warrantee not to chip. It's a kit the even comes with the brake cleaner. You mix the two parts and it goes on thick and comes out glossy. Pretty happy so far. Black looks nice but it's not too loud.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3110Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3111Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3112Medium.JPG)
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T2 Diff /Rear End Assembly
Next up was installing the T2 rear.
[ED Note for those going shopping, while either s4 or s5 T2 rears will work, the s5 is a viscous type diff and tends to be a bit finicky to keep working right. The s4 is a clutch type and is really the diff of choice. Both s4 and s5 use 8? ring gears instead of 7? N/A diffs. The GTUS model used a 7? LSD but it won?t hold the power like the T2 units so don?t be misled.
Finally be warned that there a couple varieties of stub axles.
(http://mazdatrix.com/pictures/g-tra-di/turbostubshafts.jpg)
The half shafts for the 87 models are slightly shorter but the 88-91 half shafts are all the same. It?s best to get a whole assembly together to make sure it works right. At one point I was force to run the longer 87 stub axle with a longer 88+ half shaft so I can confirm that worked but it was really hard to get compressed enough to clear the studs on the stub axles during install so I don?t recommend it]
This job's mostly a pain because it's hard to get the back end of the car high enough up in the air to get the assembly under there. Steve (Brismo7) and I ended up dragging the new rear under the car whole but we didn?t have clearance to set it on the jack first. We set up wood blocks to keep from destroying the dust shields on each brake disc and just brute forced it into rough position. Then a big crowbar was just the trick to progressively block it higher and higher until we could get the jack underneath it. The hot tip for rear end installs is to spread the load front to back by balancing both the subframe and diff on a piece of 2x8 or other board. Once it?s balanced it drives home easy.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3126Medium.JPG)
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Fuel Pump Upgrade
While I had the other subframe out I went ahead and swapped in my Wahlbro fuel pump. This assembly came whole with a parts car I picked up so I?ve never had to mess with it. Someday I might try to make this thread truly comprehensive with instructions on how I did but for now I?ll leave this topic to the search function (you can probably find info at the club as well).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3122Medium.JPG)
I?m using the stock 5/16 hardline toward the front of the car. I know the LS1s came with 3/8 line but with the fuel pressure regulator (Vette filter/FPR) in the engine bay I figure any pressure drop in the lines won?t matter as long as I get the flow needed. I bought a wideband 02 sensor so I should be able to check myself. [Ed note: I?ve run 462 rwhp through this 5/16 line with no sign of pressure drop to date, the factory hardline is the way to go for most N/A applications if you ask me. However, if you?re into a big displacement motor you?ll want to double check.]
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Vette A/C vs. Grannies? Mount Conflict
I installed all accessories and would have dropped it in the car for the first time except I ran into a problem with the Vette A/C compressor location vs. Granny?s mounts. (I don?t believe any other combo would have issues). Because all the Vette accessories are located about 1? further aft than the basic F-body/GTO stuff the compressor interferes with Grannies mounts. If the same size compressor was 1? further forward I?d be fine but for now I need an extra 5/8? inch that I don?t have.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3167Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3170Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3171Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3172Medium.JPG)
My final answer: No A/C for the time being. I'll leave space for the condenser in front of my radiator and solve this in a couple years. In a way I'm kind of relieved because that?s a few less custom hoses to worry about and with school back in session I need to get this bad boy on the road post haste. Still hoping to have it done for Steaks and Beer. It?s gonna be a good push to get her there. If I show up un-tuned with open headers and ear plugs at least I'll have made it there? Heck, if anyone wants to bring their laptop and HP Tuners maybe we?ll get it dialed in on with a street tune.
Motor goes in the car tomorrow night!
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3166Medium.JPG)
I've got everything trimmed and fitted to the JTR radiator but I'm waiting to report on that until I have a motor in place to compare the spacing to. First impression: it kicks ass. :yeah:
Joel
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Header Clearancing & Trans Tunnel Modifications
I?m jumping out of sequence here again and mentioning a few things that you could do before the motor goes in. I talk about some of this below but I thought a few pictures might help.
The two spots that you?ll likely need to do some clearancing are for the headers at the two corners where the firewall transitions into the transmission tunnel and removal of the two former trans mounts inside the tunnel.
Unfortunately it?s really hard to get exact pictures and measurements of where you need to clearance for headers. Here?s my best try for the passenger side (driver?s side is similar).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3197Medium.JPG)
At some point the easiest thing to do is to throw the engine in the car in a close approximation of where it?s going to live and try to fit up your headers. I choose to run JTR 1 3/4 headers based on the results of others. Factory manifolds work fine but you may have clearancing issues as well due to the location of the three bolt flanges.
In regards to the trans tunnel mounts, I suggest you take them all the way off using a spot weld cutter. There are 26 total spot welds on each of these damn things but it?s the only way to get them out clean. Note that the three spot welds marked with X's I never could find from the outside but managed to break because the penetration wasn't great. Probably why I couldn't see/feel them.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1753Medium.JPG)
No sign of visible rust anywhere on the car but it turns out there's still a wee bit of cancer between layers, presumably where the spot welds burned the paint. I can only imagine what you poor east coasters have to deal with when you add salted roads into the mix. This will of course be ground out and painted.
The above is a tough job (probably why I didn?t finish it in the first pass) but the results are worth it. I?d like to think this is the kind of thing that really sets apart a quality build. We now return to 2006.
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Exhaust Gasket Porting
If you're running 1 3/4 primaries on a set of headers you might want to look into exhaust gasket porting. Note: 1 3/4 seems to be the best all around header for 5.7L applications and smaller but some folks running strokers, FI, or nitrous might see more power with 1 7/8 in which case you'd want definitely want to do this.
The only real trick to it was to clamp the gasket between two layers of wood so that I wouldn?t rip it up with the hole saw?s teeth. It looks like I definitely dropped some restriction doing this.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3192Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3193Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3194Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3195Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3196Medium.JPG)
I?m pretty happy with the end result.
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Motor Install!
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3181Medium.JPG)
-Motor and Trans dropping in. Danzan likes my engine.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3182Medium.JPG)
-Everyone needs a picture like this at some point. The load leveler is once again key. I installed this with the intake and valley cover removed using the valley cover bolt holes front and rear.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3183Medium.JPG)
-Best way to get the engine aligned to the cradle: It's IMPORTANT to do a dry fit out of the car to be sure the width is right (some of these can be a bit warped). On Brismo's car we had to drive each side of the cradle in by about 1/4" with a scissor jack. Then you use the same scissor jack to shove the engine to the rear. A mechanics jack under the tail of the transmission is useful for getting the side to side alignment right.
-I'm more impressed with Grannies bolt through the floor tranny brace design after closer inspection than when I first looked at it. The plates up top are just long enough that they capture the two undercar channels (I want to call them frame rails but they're really not) thereby adding strength. It's going to be hard to get the exhaust up and over this guy but I think it's do able.
-Driveshaft was the perfect length (c4 vette shaft, with the longer slip yoke and mazda rear flange both, everything is referenced in my parts list up top.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3316Medium.JPG)
-I cut down the stock camaro shift boot and sandwiched it in place using the oem FC frame. Should help with transmission tunnel heat and the shifter landed so nice in the hole that I had to try it.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3190Medium.JPG)
-Pushrods and rockers are in. Valve covers next.
-If you haven't done so already you're about to figure out where you need to clearance stuff to make this fit. I can confirm you need to cut off the driver?s side Mazda tranny mount (bulge on side of tunnel) I ground mine as flat as I could, sealed the gaps with hot glue [Ed note: I didn't realize how high the exhaust would have to run so epoxy or caulk might have been a better choice. Nothing's melted yet, but I thought I'd mention it] so it won't "drink water" and painted it with undercoating. I left the other Mazda trans mount in place. Trimming off one bulge only will only work if you running Grannies mounts on the rear hole. Any other combo and they both need to be removed.
-I had to yank the engine out one more time after test fitting the JTR headers. If you run Hinson mounts or Grannies on the front cradle holes you'll probably get away with less. Mine needed significant clearancing on both sides. One warning: don't get too aggressive with your firewall modding or you'll start messing with the area under the gas pedal.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3197Medium.JPG)
Here's the final version with the headers installed. Passenger side is a tad closer than the drivers. Headers go in easy from the bottom (assuming you have the car pretty high on the jack stands) but it does help if you put the starter in afterward.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3198Medium.JPG)
-Starting to peel back all the shrink wrap. If you look closely you can see where I trimmed the lip on the firewall for intake manifold clearance. I also had to dent in the center slightly where the nipple for the map sensor sticks out.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3201Medium.JPG)
-Manifold fits nice
-Using the rear holes on Grannies mount leaves me ~5/8" in clearance to the firewall on the passenger side head and the shifter fits PERFECTLY in the stock location (no trimming required). If you ask me this is the biggest advantage of Grannies mounts over other offerings.
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Powersteering
-Powersteering is all plumbed. For anyone in SoCal check out Orme Brothers in Northridge CA. Amazing shop and high quality work. I basically had new fittings braised on Chevy high pressure fitting at the pump and at the banjo for the Mazda rack. I took these pics about six months after the fact so excuse the fact they're dirty, this should give you a better idea of the braising work.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3545Medium.JPG)
Bottom side of the pump
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3543Medium.JPG)
At the steering rack.
The low pressure return just uses barb fittings on each end so that was easy. I plumbed it in using the factory Mazda power steering coolant loop.
Still to do:
-Wire it (harness already modded)
-Mount radiator permanently
-Fuel system (have supplies)
-Need adaptor fitting for clutch line (mine is custom so this might be different for you)
Unfortunately I'm waiting on the fittings for the oil pressure sender so I don't have the intake manifold permanently installed yet. That plus the fact that grad school is starting to hit hard (on the side of full time work). At this point I only give myself 40% odds of having it done for steaks and beer. :cry:
Questions:
-What/where is the steam vent? I've seen it alluded to as a "run hose so you can burp it and then cap the line" but not where it is. [Ed note: this is the same thing as the cross over tubes that run just above the valley cover. It needs to plumb into the upper radiator hose... See a bit further down in the thread for more info]
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Clutch Hydraulics
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3599Medium.JPG)
Also at some point along this timeframe I completed my clutch plumbing.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4591Medium.JPG)
I built a bracket to reorient the master cylinder vertically (heavy black UHMW plastic and a couple hole saws worked well). I think Hinson sells these now so for some small change you can avoid the hassle.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3598Medium.JPG)
Hardline runs along beneath the brake booster. I'll go back and weed out all the spare connectors at some point but I wasn't hacking into the harness more than I needed to until I had a running car to help me diagnose what was what.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3601Medium.JPG)
The adaptor bushing that goes from brake line fitting to -AN for the braided SS I used to jump to the transmission was a HUGE PITA to find. I literally bought probably a dozen fittings from 4 stores before I found the right one from Orme Brothers. However in the end I was stoked that I could reuse my stock clips and bracket just relocated down by the stock fuel filter location.
On the trans side I have another fitting braised in place.
Progess pic to date:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3210Medium.JPG)
Unfortunately grad school hitting hard means this will be as far as I get before Seven Not Stock Steaks and Beer... I realized I wasn't going to make it and decided it was stupid to keep burning vacation and killing myself. I was having flashbacks to JJ's (aka drivinggodspeed's) "Diary of a Madman" thread.
Besides, it might not be such a great idea to head on a road trip (even a short one across LA) until I've confirmed that it won't overheat and that the tuning is close. What makes me think the temptation would be there to put my foot into it sooner than I really should? :D
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Shifter Boot /Sealing Heat
If you have the option, grab the original rubber shifter boot from the F-body (not the leather part, the accordion rubber piece that?s below this). With a little trimming it fits well with the Mazda metal surround. This should help minimize the heat coming through the trans tunnel.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3316Medium.JPG)
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Radiator Setup / Volvo s80 fan
I got my hands on one of JTRs early prototype radiator kits based on an aftermarket c4 vette radiator. Note the black parts that mount to tow hooks are aluminum in the JTRs current version. Install sequence goes like this:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3259Medium.JPG)
Lower support (think through hole locations carefully for future maintenance as you wont be able to get to some of these.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3260Medium.JPG)
I added the horizontal studs in the uprights to allow fan mounting.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3262Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG3264%28Medium%29.JPG)
Trimming the fan shroud.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3265Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3266Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3269Medium.JPG)
You can see where I put my hardware for better access.
The fan is from the Volvo s80 but it?s the same one used with the XC90 and several other Volvos. I started off running two OEM relays in parallel to share load but ended up smoking a few wires. Instead I switched to a DC Control FK-35 control box. I believe DC Control?s base model is now the FK-50.
I'm finally happy with my fuse setup for the fan. See more on that here (http://" ").
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First Pass a Fuel System
I just about finished my fuel system [Ed note, this ended up being a first pass at a fuel system as I changed it up having thought about it for a while]. Thanks to DanWRX for letting me stare at his car for a while at SNS west. The 98 vette "return style" rails are quite a bit different. I do like the simplicity in the run though. The FPR is part of the rails so the vette combo filter/FPR is not required (FYI that?s the easy setup for those with returnless rails). You do get to run a vacuum line from the FPR at the rail to manifold pressure instead of referencing the FPR off of atmosphere. I used the spare nipple back by the map sensor to run this. I also remounted the stock fuel filter holder up on the shock tower via a bit of resizing holes and used a random fram fuel filter (G7333) with the proper 3/8 quick connects.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3268Medium.JPG)
[Ed. note: I've decided I wanted the real estate here on the shock tower so I bought a new rx7 filter, mounted it in the OEM location (albeit tweaking inward as close to the frame rail as possible) and covered it in heat shielding because it's right by the header collector.]
And here's how I left it after a weekend of good wrenching:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3267Medium.JPG)
It's actually starting to look like a motor in there. The biggest thing left is wiring and I've walked myself through that a couple of times so it's really just chasing the wires. I think I'm still on track to fire it up next weekend.
Joel
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Intake Tract v1.0:
Eventually I intend to build myself a cold air box so I'm running my air filter off on the side of the bay. I found an intake kit from a 96 impala on eBay that used 3 1/2" piping and had ordered that a while previously. Once I saw how far it stuck out I knew I was going to need to fab some support for it. I lengthened the leads to the MAF and bent some 1/8" aluminum bar stock into supports so my intake is basically on a tripod with the elbow being the 3rd leg.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3283Medium.JPG)
I put all the flat faces of the barstock in the direction the engine will shift on its mounts and rubber mounted the far tips so it can flex. That box under the headlight is the fuel pump resistor relay that's not needed with the ls1 and has since been removed. (It basically makes the mazda pump see partial voltage when not needed)Here's the final version:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3284Medium.JPG)
By the way the elbow needed is a 4" to 3 1/2" not a pure 3 1/2" 90. I don't know how I got this wrong but I did. I called JTR to order the right one and Mike was cool enough to flow that to me as a thank you for taking all the pics during radiator install. Props for good customer service.... :yeah:
Parts list:
-4 to 3.5" elbow
-3.5" pipe (bought a kit from a 96 impala)
-3.5" coupler to MAF
-MAF to 3.5" intake
-4x 4? ID stainless worm gear hose clamps
-1x 4.5? ID stainless worm gear clamp
-Plus those couple strips of 1/8? x 1? aluminum I used to support the cantilevered end.
I eventually made 436 rwhp through this setup.
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Wiring Notes Consolidated
[Ed Note: I put this together way after my car was done because I had Danzan and Brismo7 help me out on the first pass. Still, this is where it belongs in sequence so here you go.)
Wiring: it seems like that's a place a lot of folks get stuck... I've tried answering a few PMs on the topic so I thought even a high level overview might help some other folks out.
No one has ever really done a full up set of wiring instructions (at least that I know of). There are lots of bits and pieces out there but the closest in my opinion is the instructions to install a pre modified wiring harness from Brismo7/Danzan (now Dan.Snyder). Brismo was doing DynoTested's harnesses for a while there and may still be but the idea is similar.
The easiest way to address the wiring harness is to modify a GM harness and then deal with the interface to the chassis electronics. Most of the stock Mazda engine harness can go away (all but the wipers and ABS--if you have it--on the passenger side). The drivers side has a bunch of spare connectors you can weed out but I tend to recommend that you you leave it alone until the car's functioning and you can see what you really need. You don't want to lose your turn signals by mistake.
That said, you really only have six or seven things you need to hook up to the car, the challenge is weeding that GM harness down and bundling/bringing the wires out to interface. I tend to suggest it's well worth the ~$180 to have this done for you (just don't use Hinson as that's really not one of his strengths)
I'm enclosing Danzan's wiring install directions which include a bunch of notes I took during my install. Be warned that these were written to cover the interface once harness mods are done. If you feel like doing this from scratch the writeup includes link to GM pinouts so hopefully from there you can do a bit of reverse engineering, and figure out what you need to do to pull the leads required...
Interface to the car is:
- 12V continous
- 12V ignition
- starter
- VSS
- ground
- fan relay
- fuel pump relay
There's also a resistor required to feed the alternator the correct voltage to turn on properly. If you search for "resistor" and "alternator" you'll probably find it. I believe there was another resistor you could install to disable skip shift but most folks do that in the ECM anyways.
Both constant and ignition on power leads run to multiple things (each injector etc). But it's not too bad you just have to take your time and recognize that in some cases the ECU provides power to a relay and in some cases it provides ground.
Good luck, take your time, and solder/heat shrink EVERYTHING. You'll be happy you did down the road.
following is my latest harness mod writeup. it applies to the FC as well as the FD. 1999-2002 LS1
It is convenient to pull the following wires out of the camobird connectors
...C100...black 10 pin connector.
............J- dk green (cooling fan 1 relay control out)
...C101...grey 10 pin connector.
............D- dk green w/ white stripe (fuel pump relay control out)
...C102...
............A- purple (starter solenoid "start" power in)
...C105...black 8 pin connector.
............G- white (tach signal out)
There are 5 pink wires going to the F body external connectors. cut those wires off to equal length & skin about 1/2" of insulation. Twist the ends & solder them together, along with an extension wire. #10 wire will do for the extension. That wire will go to the ignition-on wire at the ignition switch.
There is an orange wire on the F body external connector. That wire will connect to battery constant.
After you do these power wires, you can cut off the F body external connectors.
There is one very long bundle that has a rubber grommet on it. Be careful when you cut that bundle off, because there is a loop of orange wire, that comes out of the fat harness shroud, at the top end of that bundle. There are no needed wires in that long snake.
You may want to save the long wires, for use later.
4. Solder a 470 ohm resistor in the red wire coming from pin 15, red connector.
5. CAGS- Cut off the CAGS plug from the harness. Solder a 2.2K ohm resister between the two cut wires.
BLUE CONNECTOR WIRES.
1. Fan control, low temperature-dark green wire coming from pin 42, blue connector.
2. OBD2. Dark green from pin 58 blue “serial data”.
RED CONNECTOR WIRES.
1. Speedometer control-Skin about 1/2 inch of insulation from the purple/white wire from pin 21. red connector. If you are using a smart speedometer, the purple/white wire goes to the speedometer input.
2. Tachometer. White wire on pin 10, red connector.
3. Fan control- High temperature. Dark blue wire, pin 33.
4. Starter-Use the purple wire already in the harness.
5. Oil pressure. A wire must be added if the Mazda gray/red wire is missing. One end will go to the gauge. the other end will go to your sensor. This wire will come out of the harness at the location of your sensor installation.
6. Coolant temperature. A wire must be added. This wire will go from the sensor location @ the threaded hole at the rear of the passenger side cylinder head, to the gauge.
7. Check engine light. Use the brown/white wire from pin 46.
8. Fuel pump relay. Dark green/white wire coming from pin 9, red connector.
9. Back up lights. Not controlled by the PCM. connect one plug wire to ignition-on, & the other to any red wire, that goes to the lights.
10. Reverse lockout-automatic only- light green, pin 44 , red, if you are lucky
GM A/C
11. A/C request. Dark green/white-pin 17
12. A/C status. Dark green-pin 18
13. A/C clutch. Dark green/white-pin 43
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The Devil's in the details...
So this is a bit of a cleanup post to document a few of the things that were hard at the end of the road. If you're reading really carefully you might notice I predicted startup "next weekend" on Nov 6, 2005 and yet didn't fire it for almost three and half weeks. Why?
Sway Bar:
I had a couple problems here. First, I didn't like the angularity that the end links made when using Granny's relocating brackets. The problem is actually the urethane style end links don't have the same range of motion that the stockers (which use ball joints) do.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3123Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3124Medium.JPG)
I?m just going to have to run the stockers.
While I have it back out I'll fix something else that bothered me. The swaybar mounts have perfect spacing but I'm a little worried about the aluminum threads while running a thick bar. The new holes come into the frame rails blind so you either get to cut off the stock bolts or run different hardware (which in my case meant the closest I could find only engaged 80% of the aluminum. I decided to go with door number three. I cut off some longer bolts so each screw tip had minimum taper and I engage threads all the way through.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3270Medium.JPG)
The bigger issue is that on the Corvette the pulleys and belts all sit ~1" closer to the block than do the F-body goods. This meant that my sway bar would rotate up and INTO the bottom flange (AC portion) of the pulley when both sides compressed. I eventually added 3/8" to the Grannies sway bar spacers for a total of 1 1/8" down and 1/2" forward.
I debated trying to machine off the A/C portion of the pulley since I can't run the corvette AC compressor with Grannies mounts. See here (http://www.v8rx7forum.com/showthread.php?t=38921) for that whole debacle. However, this is a balanced piece designed to spin 7000 rpm and I just didn't trust that it'd be right.
The added spacers still weren't getting me the clearance I wanted with the suspension compressed so I finally broke down and ordered the ASP under drive pulley. My stock pulley was a smidge less than 7 1/2" diameter at the flange. The ASP (-25% main, -10% AC) is about 6 5/8"
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3277Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3278Medium.JPG)
Couldn't get the tape quite at the right surface ignore the tape readings. What matters is that I gained another 3/8" and now I look good to go. Running the bar spaced down that low meant I used the stock end links with ball joints and had to hammer the sheet metal clevis (where it attaches to the lower arm) forward into a parallelogram to keep the links from binding.
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LS6 PCV and steam tubes:
There really are some differences in the ls1's between all the years of LS1s. As mentioned earlier I swapped heads from a 98 to late model. Man did this ever burn me.
-98 coils bolt directly to valve covers not to a bracket then to the covers like the rest of the years (I knew this)
-98 valve covers have a different bolt pattern (around the perimeter rather than the normal 4 bolt up the center style <- I didn't know this)
-oil filler cap on the 98 valve covers doesn?t use the riser tube (GM #1255-9505). You?ll need this or the cap will interfere with the front-most coil
-98 coils can be used with 99 brackets but one coil on each bank has to be flipped over to mount properly
-there are TWO types of coils that came on the 99-02 ls1. Brackets DO NOT mix and match (guess who got the wrong ones.)
The other detail about heads was that the valve covers I ended up with only had one port on the passenger side. This meant that the 98 ls1 pcv system wasn't going to work. I had ordered the breather kit from Speed Inc before doing much research since I was pushing hard to get this done. The idea is that you put a breather in each head, or even just one head if you trust bay to bay transfer. The problem is that while you do relieve the pressure you don't clear out any blowby gases and the life of your oil goes to crap because of the junk getting in it.
So I caved and bought the ls6 valley cover. Yanked the intake manifold off one more time.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3312Medium.JPG)
Here's the difference in valley covers:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3313Medium.JPG)
By sucking vapor from the valley you get a lot less oil consumption, plus as mentioned, the PCV still works properly and that was the only way it was going to happen with my valve covers. There's a good write-up on how to do the swap and the parts needed on ls1howto.com. (http://www.ls1howto.com/index.php?article=18)
The only piece they don't talk about much is the crossover tubes (AKA the steam tubes from my inquiry earlier in the thread.) In order for the stock ls1 tubes to be used I had already done quite a bit of rib carving on the bottom side of my ls6 intake. However the PCV pulls from the a line which conflicts with the stock tubes such that I decided not to keep bending and prying.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3314Medium.JPG)
Instead I just did it right and used the ls6 tubes (which is really a single side to side up front and plugs for the back) I got a while back. I thought the ls1 would be better but as the engine does tip up somewhat those back vents probably won't do much for letting coolant bubble out anyways.
[Ed note: if you?re feeling hardcore you can get adaptors for these fittings into AN lines. That lets you run all 4. See 65imp?s ?TVR? build for details.]
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OEM Oil Pressure sender
I should point out the picture with the intake manifold off one more time as this shows off the easy way to integrate your Mazda oil pressure sender.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3312Medium.JPG)
Oil pressure is the gold sender I have mounted top rear on the block where the GM unit went before. To do this you need:
-an m16x1.5 to 1/8? NPT adaptor
-a 1/8 npt 45 degree fitting (to help the sender clear the intake manifold )
You can also relocated the sender onto the firewall or elsewhere but wiring is a single lead that just goes through the block so make sure you maintain good grounding. I eventually ended up plugging in my Accusump here and running the sender off a T fitting close to the electric check valve.
Last thing to mention, if you do plan to run an Accusump here you may want to open up a restriction just inside the block at this port into the oil galleys More info here? (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=659.msg7050.html#msg7050)
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Water Temp Sender Adaptor
I've been unhappy with the options available for mounting the water temp sender in the LS1 head. You need an adaptor to go from the 1/8" npt thread on the sender to the m12 x 1.5 thread on the LS1 block. (Anyone else amused by the fact the domestic manufacturer uses metric, while the import uses SAE?)
Anyways, the nose on the sender means you have to drill out the adaptor or you can't get any thread engagement.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3279Medium.JPG)
I had heard the brass adaptor fittings were pretty weak so I ordered two. The area under the o-ring has a minor OD of 0.375 vs. 0.292 for the OD of the nose. With a 5/16 drill bit that's only 0.035 wall thickness remaining. Then it strikes me: Why not just cut the threads off one adaptor, drill out the base and weld the additional NPT threads so I've got a bigger void for the nose to extend into?
After looking into it a bit more I settled on silver solder (SSF-6) from www.muggyweld.com (http://www.muggyweld.com). I used a mini oxy-acetylene torch to heat it up with the two parts held in a pair of vice grips.
Only advice I have is to heat slowly. You want a dull orange color (see demo vids on muggyweld). I ended up blowing away some of the brass by mistake. If you see the brass surface start to blister you need to BACK OFF.
Used a sander to clean up the messiness a bit and here's the end result.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3386Medium.JPG)
You can see how thin the walls of the drilled out portion I cut off became. Not my prettiest work but it look like it'll function fine...
-Joel
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Battery relocation (v 1.0):
My rx7 came with 3 full sizes batteries and a ton of stereo gear -- most of which I parted out because I want to track this car. I had a yellow top in the bay and a Exedy deep cycle battery, in each passenger bin underneath the carpet which was kind of folded inside out. The nice part was that power was already run. Mounting turned out to be a pain.
I bought a nice mounting kit from a company called Production Engineering that I found through eBay and which was designed for my Optima. It's a slick billet piece and pretty light. I knew because the base of the pad was wider than the base of the battery that I'd need to use some risers and longer bolts. Here's an early test fit. The whole car is wrapped in dynamat from its boomin system days.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3327Medium.JPG)
After I got everything where I wanted it and picked up the 2" bolts I discovered that the contour of the carpet is such that it won't let the mount drop in all the way. I tried detaching the carpet from the frame of the bin but it curls inward and I knew it was going to annoy me just knowing it was there. SOOOO.... I added another 1/2" to my wood risers (total thickness 1 1/4" BTW) and it finally fit nice. Here's the frame inside the carpet:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3329Medium.JPG)
I'm using a 140 amp breaker so I can disconnect the battery easily and I also placed things so I can still use jumper cables without too much difficulty. Here's the final version:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3331Medium.JPG)
Came out clean and I'm happy with it. I'm using a simple power distribution block in the engine bay. You can see it on the driver's side fender lining in a few of the shots above. 4 gauge cable to the block and then to the starter.
EDIT!: I've been driving the car for a month and half now and the only thing I'm really unhappy with was the battery wiring... Due to the Dynamat mentioned above I keep the 4 gage cable that was in the car (it was run below said sticky madness). Although a wire can be treated as an electrical node in theory (meaning equal voltage everywhere) this is not true in reality particularly when you talk large amperages over any significant distance. Because I ran fom battery to distribution block on the drivers side and THEN around the front of the car to the starter I have probably 22 feet of 4 AWG cable between my battery an the starter. When I try to start my car it turns over weakly. This is especially true when I turn the car off and then try to restart it 5 minutes later. It's enough that it pops my 140 Amp breaker ALL THE TIME. I can usually get it going but it's annoying as all get out and is especially lame when you want to show off the beast.
I reran power using 1/0 AWG cable through a 250 Amp breaker directly to my starter on the shortest path (~11 ft total), then it goes from there to my main fuse block with the 4 gauge I already had run and finally from there to the alternator... Post on that redo is here. (http://XXX).]
Joel
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A couple more things:
Lengthening throttle pedal:
I didn't like the fact that the Mazda throttle cable was designed to drop through the firewall at a downward angle but the Camaro cable I'm using goes straight through. It means that the cable itself has to turn a downward corner and is undoubtedly going to saw through the plastic housing over time. I also noticed I didn't have enough pedal travel to open the butterfly all the way. I decided to kill two birds with one stone and had a 1" extension welded in to the upper end to lengthen the pedal.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3334Medium.JPG)
The pedal itself unbolts easily. I'll let you know how it works out but it looks like I should be a lot better off.
Finally much thanks goes to my wife Tamara for putting up with me being a basket case for the last couple months. This shot was from last night as she was helping me bleed the brakes.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3332Medium.JPG)
If you look close you can see the delrin shift knob. I bought one designed after the c5r race car (but made for a c5) and lathed off a few hard edges. Then I discover that the vette knobs use a 9/16-18 thread instead of the m16 x 1.5 on the Camaro. It's the same trans! What the heck was the general of GM thinking?!? Mixing and matching in these cars can be painful. Re-tapped the threads and it finally came out nice.
Car should move on its own this weekend. I have an appointment at the exhaust shop next week.
Joel
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wondering for my own H/C knowledge... r your heads milled? which f13? compressed gasket thickness?
oh, and great thread. i love the link in ur sig. if proper utilized w/ the other resources on the web, there should be alot less repetitive questions asked on here. thanks for taking the time to document everything, i know i am always to impatient to take pics and write stuff down.
No, my heads are not milled. I'm using stock OEM gaskets and a Futral F13 cam. After talking to Allan at Futral it seems that there's some "indifference" <- (his words, not mine) in the tolerance stackup of all the timing pieces. In my case this meant that retarding ~1.7 degrees put my P to V clearance within a 0.001 of published specs on the cam. Any time you're playing with aggressive cams they want to open the valve as soon as possible during intake event and leave it open for as long as possible during the exhaust stroke. It pretty much makes sense where the piston to valve clearance gets close.
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Brake prop valve interference:
With the engine all the way back against the firewall you may have an interference between the brake prop valve (little hydraulic manifold that distributes fluid to the 4 corners) and the most aft coil on the drivers side head. I solved this via flipping my distribution block around backward and trimming the mount.
Before:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3231Medium.JPG)
After:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3242Medium.JPG)
[Ed. Note: This still rubbed on the spark plug line just a hair so redid this one more time. Bending the mounting point out a bit further than 90 degrees appears to be the hot ticket]
After part 2:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3668Medium.JPG)
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Heater hoses (v 1.0)
For heater hoses I basically figured out where it needed to bend and went looking for formed hoses.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3208Medium.JPG)
Might be a bit hard to see here but the three hoses are Goodyear part numbers
63244 (bent shorty)
63824 (medium)
63107 (long)
That 63244 is the money hose for getting up and out from behind the intake manifold. I reused one of my stock rx7 hoses but you could just as easily buy two of the 63244 and trim them to fit. I was able to cut enough off of the long one (63107) to reuse a piece of that to run along the firewall to where my hoses come in together and turn 90 via the adaptors.
Don't know who carries which hoses but these were all bought at a local Kragen. The only other thing you need to be careful of is the fact most of these hoses taper from 5/8" to 3/4" (or the opposite depending which end you started with). It works out to use the two long hoses with both bends down at the water pump and trimmed so they stick out an even 3" or so. You'll need to put a bit of thought into which clamps face which way as well.
Other than exhaust here's my finished engine bay:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3346Medium.JPG)
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First Motor Firing
IT'S ALIVE!! Muahhaahhhaaa!
VIDEO. (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/329112/frijolees_ls1_rx7_startup/)
Now you can watch me try to twist the throttle body the wrong way... :D What can I say, I was tired. When it revs up there?s just a bit of a staccato to it that makes me wonder if it's missing. Might just be the cam though. I don?t have educated ears yet.
I recognize I need to fill in a bit more info on the build process to get from the last post to here... (probably do that at Christmas break) BUT I had to pass the good word. I've been pushing on this so hard for so long I wasn't sure whether I'd be excited or just relieved. It lit up on the first try and I was jumping around like an idiot.
Now all that's left is the wrap things up and make the wiring pretty, bleed brakes and clutch, hookup the cable x box, and a few other do-dads. Oh and putting the seats in and the wheels on would be a good idea too. :yeah:
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Diff Control (v1.0)
I had one invention to add to the discussion about diff control and avoiding wheel hop. As I see it the two big aluminum ears coming off the case of the diff are responsible for controlling 'roll' and the front mount has to control 'pitch.'
Controlling the front seems to be pretty well covered by setting the pinion angle parallel to the output shaft of the transmission (1-2 degrees at each end gets you enough motion of the u-joint), and using a pinion snubber and/or harder durometer rubber (Mazda calls it the competition mount). I?m not a fan of trying to weld the front mount solid. This just tries to make it carry the roll with a tiny moment arm and pretty much guarantees you'll crack something in fatigue over time. The only way to run a solid front mount IMO is by building a vastly fortified mount to the subframe. If you try it make sure you run solid mounts in the rear ears to match.
I wasn?t going to there but I still wanted to try increasing the stiffness at the two ears as simply as I could without going to delrin mounts or something harsh. I'd noticed on my former diff that one ear would knock up and down on accel/deccel and that the rubber crown looking section doesn't do anything unless the inside bushing extends downward enough to touch it.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3339Medium.JPG)
As such I built some spacers to make this carry a bit of preload. 3/8" thick plastic and a couple sizes of hole saw and I was good to go. Remember that hole saw's are always measured at the OD of the hole so OD of the circle you cut ends up being at least an 1/8" smaller. Here's my end result:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3340Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3341Medium.JPG)
[Ed Note: I?ve since discovered that you can use the same principle by trimming the sleeve inside the rear mounts so the cover plate sees preload.]
New bushings and good condition shocks (there's some debate over coilover vs stock) are the other two mandatory wheel hop remedies.
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First Pics on 4-wheels
I took the car for a spin last night with open headers. It was about as stealthy as an Abrams tank on the freeway but I got away with it. No sign of wheel hop but I won't really know until I get to launch it on sticky tires.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3343Medium.JPG)
It pulled pretty good but definitely felt ragged. More vibration that I was expecting but that might have something to do with the open headers and the fat shockwaves under my feet. I dropped it off at the exhaust shop today on my lunch hour but before I leaving work I lit it off in the parking lot.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3350Medium.JPG)
Who says FCs can't turn heads? :yup:
Joel
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Well, it's back from the exhaust shop and man does she drive nice... The Magnaflow mid-muffler didn't fit (would have to be too close to the trans mount) so I went with a regular x-pipe. I did successfully have them route it up and over granny's trans mount.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3356cropMedium.jpg)
Had the shop guy build me a driveshaft loop while he was in there:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3357Medium.JPG)
The 7" round Magnaflows with a standard x-pipe are surprisingly quiet. That said, I like it nice and mellow so it's perfect for me. If you want a bit more roar don't be afraid to try out the 6" version. I need to double check my tuning and all that before I start driving hard but I'm smiling big so far.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3353editMedium.jpg)
One more on the road baby!
Joel
PS: Per request here's my list of tubing used for the exhaust...
It's 100% 304 stainless stress mandrel bends in 16 gage walls (0.065). Everything was bought from Racing Solutions (http://store.racing-solutions.org/).
(1) 2.5" stainless super intercooler builder kit
(1) 2.5" stainless 180 degree bend on 3.75 radius (needed one more than the kit)
(8ft) 2.5" stainless straight tube (7 ft would have been fine if you could get it in two 3.5 ft pieces)
(1) 3" stainless 90 degree bend on 4" radius (to turn upward after the header flange).
I also bought 2.5 to 3" transistions but the jump was too sharp so I didn't end up using them and just had the exhuast shop do some stepped stretching where the 2.5 meets the 3.
3" V-band clamps came with my JTR headers up front. In back the 2.5" clamps are from summit. I used a magnaflow x-pipe but if you wanted to build your own you'd only need 1 more 2.5" 180 deg (or 2 more 2.5" 90s). Finally I had (2) 3 ft sticks of 3/8" pencil rod for misc hangers.
The magnaflow 7" round cans are killer for a daily driver. If you wanted it a smidge louder you might try the 6"s instead or even jump to the 80mm Corksport catback (that sucker?s loud and mean sounding) but means you only need to build a Y-pipe and it saves weight too.
[Ed note: I've been pretty happy with having exhaust sectioned just ahead of the rear end. Makes working on the diff or trans a lot easier. I'd definitely recommend this to anyone looking to "design for maintainability."]
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3354Crop.jpg)
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Driveshaft Loop
A quick note on the driveshaft loop for those contemplating a custom driveshaft loop.
Here?s the pic of my loop fresh from the exhaust shop again?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3357Medium.JPG)
I discovered after the fact that I maybe should have placed the loop a hair further forward on the shaft or else had it extend down a bit lower. You remove and install the driveshaft by removing the rear bolts at the pinion flange and dropping it down. I ended up trimming the loop a bit forward and chamfering the lower trailing edge so I?d have JUST enough clearance to get this in and out.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4966Medium.JPG)
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Splash guard fitment
No real magic here. I just trimmed the stock belly pan to fit around my JTR raditator setup.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3362Medium.JPG)
The stock belly pan fits nice and tight around the JTR radiator with a little trimming. I took off my towhooks but that's what the radiator mounts to and where the majority of the trimming has to occur.
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Blitz Type 01 Wheels
I quickly figured out that my 205/60r15 BFG g-force sports weren't going to make enough traction so I went ahead and installed my better wheels. Only weird thing was that they came with 235/45r17s all around even though the wheel set is a staggered 8" front 9" rear. If anything my traction when down with the old dried out Yokohama Avid A4's.
If you have dead tires and you want to burn them up what?s a fella to do?
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1133975/frijolees_ls1_fc_rx7_donuts/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1133975/frijolees_ls1_fc_rx7_donuts/)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3376Medium.JPG)
Lack of traction makes free mudflaps!
I decided I liked the 235/45 up front even though it's a tad taller than stock (might be a good thing with a long nose like mine). I bought a set of Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position's in the above up front and 255/40r17 in the rear. Need to get them installed, but haven't done it yet.
Finally I leave you with a nice glamour shot...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3372Medium.JPG)
This car ROCKS!
-Joel
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FYI: I finally updated the parts list and fixed all the old torque central references. The excel file in the first post changed as well. A bit more progress on the car too:
For a couple months now my signature has referenced ?breaking it in, working out the bugs? I figured it?s about time I finally got around to documenting what I might have done different given the advantages of hindsight.
Wiring: cheats and redos:
Fan Control via DC Control FK-35:
I tried to use existing Mazda relays to control the Volvo fan which aren?t rated for the load. I actually knew that already but I figured I could get away with it. Most specs I?ve seen on the Taurus fan are somewhere around 30A (amps) steady state and quite a bit more on startup. I assume the Volvo s80 fan I?m running is similar. Danzan was under the impression the H430 relays I had grabbed off my parts car were good for about 30A each. So the theory was that I could wire the signal coils in series so they?d both switch together and wire the power to the fan in parallel to load share.
Worked great? for about four months, until I was charging a canyon on a hot day. I pulled into the parking lot at the bottom and spontaneously overheated. Damn, no fan. It?s kinda funny that it did fine while I was still moving. After a little investigation here?s what I found:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3507Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3509Medium.JPG)
Smoked both relays right at the power contactors. Oops, I?m assuming my setup was marginal and forcing it to turn on and off a bunch of times pushed it over the edge. This is why wiring insulation isn?t flammable anymore. If this was 50 year-old ride and I might have burned my car down. It?s no wonder Painless has done so well selling wiring redo kits for classic cars.
Moral of the story: You need at least a properly rated 75 amp relay for fan control if you?re going through the ECU. The more I think about it the more having a soft start option seems like a good idea. As such I threw down for the DC Control FK-35 setup.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3513Medium.JPG)
It uses a temperature probe wedged into the fins of the radiator itself to continuously vary fan speed to a known temperature. The jumper pins attach the probe and allow different temperature settings. Seems like a slick unit but I?ll report back in once I have a little more time with it. I did find a nice spot to mount it on the fan shroud. This is just the test fit, I used the supplied mounting screws, disassembled all the crimp connectors and soldered/heat shrunk everything.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3512Medium.JPG)
------------------------------------
[Ed note: given the benefit of hindsight, a little more feedback on the FK-35 box follows?]
Joel - any positive or negative feedback on your DC Control variable speed fan controller? You're running this without AC, correct?
No AC yet, but I'm planning on it and did all the wiring required during my last downtime. Just need to get it plumbed.
As to the FK-35: I like it. The only real con I can see is the added cost vs. just running a big relay. I?ve been told that a good old fashioned 70 amp relay from radioshack is enough to have run ECU control if you want a simple brute force setup (stock relays are not) but this is certainly a heck of a lot more elegant.
Soft start works exactly like it?s supposed to so you never blast the fan with that big current hit up front. Jumpers for temperature adjustment are easy and work well. It?s just a simple clean solution that works.
I?ve had two issues in the two years I?ve been running this. The first was my fault when I was reassembling the car super late one night and managed to reverse power and ground. Don?t do that. It let out some SERIOUS magic smoke as it gave up the ghost. Still I was enough of a fan that I bought another. DCC even threw me a small discount because I only needed the FK-35 unit and not the full kit.
The second was more recent? this box itself started to misbehave (just randomly not turn on when temps clearly say it should have. At DCC?s request I sent it back for service and everything checked out correctly on their bench. Brian from DCC suggested I may have had a connection go bad so I?ll give all the terminals a going over with sandpaper before it goes back in. I still like the setup but until I?m sure it run problem free I can?t give it an unqualified thumbs up.
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Adding to the Main Fuse Block:
It?s always ticked me off that I had to run external fuse holders for the fan and fuel pump. It makes the wiring messy, they?re harder to get to, and I really didn?t want to run a big audio style holder just so I could get a 50A fuse in there.
Solution that I?ve been staring at for a while: 2 open spots in the main fuse block on the drivers shock tower.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3517Medium.JPG)
Battery input come from the single big lead that screws down facing the camera. This feeds a buss that connects to the input side of all 7 fuse locations. The 100A fuse goes to the alternator. Others feed the underdash fuse box etc. The hard part on this thing is that I could never get the pins out and the spade on the plug at the bottom is a weird size so you can?t just slap another spade in there.
I finally grabbed the connectors I needed from the parts car, they should be pretty easy to find at any junkyard. Once I got the spare on a bench with better lighting I finally figured out the retention. There?s a little plastic clip that?s retains each spade. However it?s shaped such that it?s hard to get out of the way, my mini screwdriver was never accurate enough until I knew exactly what I was going for. Normally you can just shove something in on one side of the clip and it'll pop right out. This requires a bit more dexterity.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3514Medium.JPG)
Retention clip
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3515Medium.JPG)
Easiest to got at it from below
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3516Medium.JPG)
This drops into the connector on the swapped car and gets spliced to fan power (after going through a relay or controller first, naturally.
Same process applies to the power side of the fuel pump relay. For factory matched sizes you?ll want to use 12awg for the fan and 16awg for the fuel pump. Add fuses and you?re golden. Oh I also upsized my input to the fuse box because it?s now carrying more load.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3518Medium.JPG)
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Battery Power Redo (relocation v2.0):
When I bought my car it came with a ton of stereo gear: a pair of 12s in the trunk, a couple giant capacitors, and 3 full size deep cycle batteries. I had one battery under the hood and one in each storage bin all were wired with 4awg leads. When I did the swap I left only a single yellowtop in the passenger bin. As the power was already run I left it alone, particularly because it was run under a layer of Dynamat Extreme and that stuff is a huge PITA to remove. However, because power was running from my passenger bin to the driver?s side shock tower through a distribution block and then around the front of the car to my starter, I probably had 18 feet of 4 gage cable between my battery and starter. The result is that my starter?s always felt weak, when the car was hot it would pop my 140A breaker at the battery.
I?m finally doing it the right way. Upping to 1/0awg cable (1/0 is single zero, 2/0 is bigger and means 00, 3/0 = 000 etc) going straight from batter to starter through a 250A breaker, THEN around the front of the car to my distribution block to feed the main fuse and alternator.
Here?s the difference between 1/0awg and 4awg.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3560Medium.JPG)
Soldering 1/0 connectors and battery terminals is a bit of a pain. Regular soldering irons simply don?t put out enough heat rapidly enough. The mass of the wire itself becomes a pretty effective heat sink. I used extra flux and a propane torch and it worked out great.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3527Medium.JPG)
One decent hole in the firewall and a giant grommet later and I started my run.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3520Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3521Medium.JPG)
Obviously you can?t solder the starter terminal until you have it properly run through the grommet. Oh, this was my first time playing with adhesive lined heat shrink. Good stuff!!!
Here?s the fuse block end all prettied up.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3665Medium.JPG)
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Relocating Vette Power Steering Reservoir (Better Hood Clearance)
This is a Vette accessory specific detail (at least I don?t know about other folks requiring clearnancing here?).
Previously I'd be forced to trim one of the underhood ribs to allow clearance for the top of power steering reservoir.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3546bMedium.jpg)
It was close but I couldn't quite get it to fit. I even tried denting the rib but it just barely started to show on the topside so I abandoned the effort.
Here's the mount for the PS reservoir. The reservoir itself is still hooked up via its hose in this shot so it's just kinda leaning against the upper radiator hose at the moment. My intent was to cut down the two side tips and just let the reservoir slide about 5/16" lower.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3551Medium.JPG)
Here's how the finished version sits:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3556Medium.JPG)
Naturally before I could remount it I needed to cut down the hose as well. I took off about 5/16" here too.
When taking this off I removed the return line and cranked the engine over by hand a dozen or so times to empty the reservoir first and make less mess.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3552Medium.JPG)
Clearance to the serpentine belt is a tad close as it heads for my high mount alternator so I'll keep an eye on this:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3555Medium.JPG)
The car now has a faded gray hood on it but it's the aluminum NA version and the thing is insanely light. I couldn't find a buyer for my clean white hood so I ended up just giving that away as opposed to sending it to the trash man.
BTW I'm suspicious that most folks running power steering won't have this problem as I'm running a Vette motor and all the accessories are different. Regardless, I thought I'd post up what I did. You run into a lot of little clearancing things to do in this swap. That includes:
-Header to firewall (both sides)
-Firewall lip to intake manifold
-Transmission tunnel hump removal
-Shifter position notching (at least if you're running Hinson mounts, Grannies mounts on the rear holes don't need it)
-Brake bypass proportioning valve to spark plugs (wrote up another thread on this but think I called it brake distribution block) I'm actually redoing this.
-Cutting sheetmetal and mounting of radiator (possibly some frame rail persuading).
-Cutting underbody panel to fit around new radiator mounting
-Various relocation of evap and brake lines particularly if you're running valve covers (which I have in the works)-Front swaybar has to be shimmed down and forward. This is especially a pain with the vette accesories
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New MC and Bench Bleeding Brakes
I've never had as much brake bite as I wanted to despite much repeated bleeding. Between that and a leaky master cylinder reservoir (not the seals, I never had a problem with it dropping to the floor) I decided to rip into the system properly. The weak brakes may be a result of the brake booster not being up to snuff and therefore seeing less assist than I'm supposed to. I'm already running stainless brake lines and decent pads so I'd be surprised if that were it.
I bought a new master cylinder from Charlie AKA Bowtie7 (thanks again by the way) and a used brake booster (having heard poor results by other users of the rebuilt versions).
This was the first time I've bench bleed a master. It wasn't too bad...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3664Medium.JPG)
Here's my setup.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3667Medium.JPG)
You can pinch off the lines one at a time on the edge of the reservoir to keep bubbles from running backward.
I could never get the engine bay clean enough for my tastes so I caved and bought a set of fuel rail covers.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3666Medium.JPG)
As usual the 98 fuel rail covers don't use the same bolt pattern as the 99 up valve covers and associated coil brackets they clip to so I had to build some little do-hickeys to shift things back and forth to get it to land properly. Best advice I have is not to mix and match 98 with anything. It works fine, it's just been a pain in the back for a long time now.
Finally, I redid my relocation for the brake distribution block AKA proportioning valve. You need to do something with this or it'll conflict with the coil.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3668Medium.JPG)
Bending the tab out about 100 degrees appears to work well it's just some work getting all the hardlines bent nicely. You can see my dangling speedo cable waiting for that cable-x box I'm still sitting on too. That whole statement about don't start driving it until it's done done done or you won't get it finished...
It's true.
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Squat Much?
I've been driving my car a bit harder getting prepped for the open track day this weekend at Buttonwillow. I had already rolled my fender lips inward a bit and was surprised to see I hooked a rear lip while dropping hard into second while showing the car to a friend.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3716Medium.jpg)
What blew my mind is how far FORWARD the tire is able to get relative to the body. I knew the rear wants to squat down a lot when you're on it but the only way it can snag the lip as shown is by shoving itself forward a good solid inch. I already have the DTSS eliminators and I guess this means it's time to install the delrin subframe mounts. I wonder if this is doing weird things to toe with the whole trailing link moving around...
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Urethane Rear Control Arm Bushings & Random Track Prep
I had a lot of prep getting ready for Mazfest's open lapping day at Buttonwillow on July 7.
It was a pretty nutty week actually. I got sacked with school stuff until about Tuesday (which was also the day I realized how far the tires were moving). Then I spent Wednesday evening installing real hardware into my driveshaft loop, something I knew I needed to do.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3719Medium.JPG)
The sheet metal screws were thrown in there temporarily when the exhaust was built because doing it the real way meant pulling the seats out.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3718Medium.JPG)
I still need to paint the loop but I should have a pretty good opportunity soon.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3720Medium.JPG)
The bolts are close enough together that I had to get creative with the fender washers.
Someday when I finally own a welder this will get replaced with bolts tacked down to a couple little plates so you don?t need a wrench on the inside to take the loop in and out. Whatever, it?ll do the job if required.
Thursday night I tackled the subframe. I wanted to get the poly bushings I?ve had sitting on my shelf into my spare subframe that already had the solid delrin subframe bushings. That way I?d have delrin at the subframe and DTSS and poly for the link which is about as solid as I want to make my rear.
The poly bushing job is every bit as much of a pain as I thought it might be. But I did finally get them in there. I started a separate thread (http://"http://www.v8rx7forum.com/showthread.php?43597-rear-subframe-swap.html")on the subframe swap that which has a couple good links to other methods. My best trick ended up being just taking a couple sizes of hole-saw and eating away the rubber until the inners finally fell out.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3724Medium.JPG)
The most insulting part of this job was the fact I didn?t realize that the bushing actually used outer sleeves. You can see the seam between the two parts that face each other and get inserted from opposite ends. I spent way too much time getting the inner surfaces smooth (or close) that turned out to be useless.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3726Medium.JPG)
The outers are press-fit in place so I couldn?t get them to budge with a hammer and punch. I finally took a hacksaw and cut through the wall until it released the pressure of the interference fit so I could them tap them out.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3728Medium.JPG)
The damages? Given that these bushings only go in one way I have no clue how folks have done this job with a press.
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I?m jumping out of order again (this install happened nearly a year later), but I thought I?d put the urethane front bushing install here for easier access.
Urethane Front Control Arm Bushings
I just finished upgrading my front control arm bushings to polyurethane using (Prothane P/N 12-203 (http://www.jegs.com/i/Prothane/311/12-203/10002/-1))
If you have the right tools this is probably the easiest job I've done with anything suspension related to date. I had a bit of guidance via a thread on v8rx7forum (http://"http://www.v8rx7forum.com/showthread.php?39292-polyurethane-bushing-installation-s.html") but that link is probably broken now so this will have to do.
Bushing 1 removal
Cut off rubber perimeter with sawzall, cut internal sleeve with dremel
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0033Medium.JPG)
Cut sleeve again with dremel and bushing just pulls off (no need for the three jaw clamp).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0034Medium.JPG)
Sand down any pitting or leftover rubber to leave a fresh smooth surface (shown here before sanding)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0036Medium.JPG)
Bushing 2 removal
Cut off rubber lip to expose metal (gives you an idea how big a socket to use)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0037Medium.JPG)
Get creative with your setup in the press (I stacked the stock plates and supported the other end w/ 2x2) and bushing #2 pressed out easily.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0039Medium.JPG)
Cleaned, greased and reinstalled using c-clamp for one, the other just by hand. (Note, I built up a spare set to avoid downtime, so here's the before and after shot).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0043Medium.JPG)
Reinstall arms, greasing anything where metal slides, and check alignment (mine didn't change, your experience may vary.) DONE.
Frankly, the hardest part of the job was getting the control arms loose from the knuckles. You have to remove completed the bolt that ties knuckle to ball joint (just loosing isn't sufficient) and things can get a bit rusty in there so a hammer, some drifts and penetrating oil is a good idea.
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AWR rear camber links
Running coil-overs up gave me camber adjustment up front but I didn?t have anything in the rear.
There were two types of aftermarket camber correction I checked out before making my choice.
1) You can affect camber by altering the length of the vertical suframe link (~10" long) as this will tip the whole subframe back and forth.
(http://mazdatrix.com/pictures/racing/CamberAdjusterRedB.jpg)
Most folks on here don't like that because it alters the pinion angle and sometimes you'd like to be able to adjust all camber angles independently. However, if you need to SET pinion angle this link can be useful (I just ground my mounting points to get me where I wanted).
2) IMHO The better option for adjustable camber is through the use of individual camber links at the inboard connection points on the lower control arms.
(http://mazdatrix.com/pictures/h-susp/2camblinks-1.jpg)
AWR (http://www.awrracing.com/index.php) and MMR (http://www.mmr-direct.com/) both sell nice versions.
Be warned that if you're running individual camber adjusters it changes the angle of the outboard LC arm pivot. This can be an issue if you're running poly bushings or something else with minimal compliance. Some folks call this binding, I ran mine that way for a while without knowing any better and tend to think it's mostly just unnecessary friction, definitely not ideal though. Stock bushings are supposed to be compliant enough to be fine but that same compliance can create wheel hop issues so your best option is to run spherical LCA bushings (also available from MMR and AWR) along with individual camber adjusters.
I?ve eventually made my way to this setup and the smoothness of range of motion is startling compared to what I had before?
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[ED Note: back to frantic track prep for Mazfest?]
Pinion Snubber
So now it?s Friday: I have my spare subframe built but not installed. If I do the subframe job I won?t be able to get a rear alignment done but the more I think about the forces the more I convince myself that I?m going to rip my front diff bushing in half with no snubber in there. I even drew myself a free body diagram of the forces.
The lack of a snubber looks to be a deal breaker so I borrow a volunteer buddy and we swapped out my entire rear end. We killed ourselves wrenching in the sun because the only flat ground I have is Guest Parking? I?m glad I at least got a field alignment because I had put the spare cradle back together like it was when I got it which turned out to have each adjustment 90 degrees out of phase. I didn?t try to drive it but when I first set the car back on its wheels it was +1.0? of toe. :eek4: I did a few more adjustments at the track and the car at least had its wheel straight ahead and didn?t misbehave.
Note I didn?t get a picture at the time so one from after the fact will have to do.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/tCIMG1390Medium.jpg)
You want the snubber to line up with one of the bungs for the front diff mount so you have slightly larger surface area for the mount to use. There?s spot weld you can see from the bottom side (it?s right in between the two e-brake cables) that marks the perfect location to drill. Unfortunately I don?t have the part number handy anymore. It?s a bump stop for a truck that?s give or take 2.5 inches long (writing from memory, not an actual measurement) and can be found in the ?help? section of a lot of car stores. Mine has steps in the side but some are rounded?
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Corner Weighting
I borrowed a set of scales to check my corner weighting. I was in a hurry so I just used water to find a chunk of parking lot with equal slope. It?s always better to shim your surface pure flat but this at least gave me a rough idea where I was starting from?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3722Medium.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG3721%28Medium%29.JPG)
That?s with 180 lbs of Frijolee in the driver seat, no spare or jack? My car?s definitely on the heavy side even given the aluminum hood (no other real weight reduction to speak of). Gotta love the cage and sound deadening. I?d definitely like to see this sub 3k at some point.
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Mazfest Track Day Review
Mazfest was amazing. Just an absolute eye-opener, but I did finally manage to render my car inoperable. Nothing major I hope but, I just lost my clutch slave cylinder near the end of the day. I?m assuming by boiling the fluid in the line (heat shield wrap is coming next!). My father in law had brought out a car trailer just in case so we hauled it back home. At the moment the trans is out and off being rebuilt (popping out of gear with your foot on the floor at high rpms is scary). Here?s how she sits for the moment.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3735Medium.JPG)
If you?re dropping the trans it?s not hard to rotate the engine backward to get a bit of a downward angle. I found I had to pull off my intake manifold to avoid crushing the map sensor into the firewall while doing this.
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Blown Up Slave Cylinder
You know, for how reliable these cars are supposed to be it sure seems like I've had mine apart more than I've had it together.
Slave cylinder was trashed and it looks like I?m going to rebuild the trans too.
Failed slave cylinder (anyone ever failed a slave like this?)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3794Medium.JPG)
Old and new slave cylinder:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3792Medium.JPG)
Does anyone know what the upgrade was to the OEM slaves between '00 and '01? I know one occurred and that the 01+ piece is now the standard replacement for all years but I don't know what's better about it. I bought a new Coni-Seal cylinder that requires you reuse your former input line. Not a big deal but now I'm second guessing myself as to whether this will do the job in a what may be a harsher than stock environment. Anyone have experience with the Coni-Seal brand?
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Fast forward a few days?
I figured out why my slave failed. I was missing the pilot bearing on my crankshaft and the input shaft was rubbing. :eek4: :eek: :eek4: Felt like a dumbass for not realizing it was gone in round 1 (working too fast in the dark trying to get the car up in the first place) but I was glad I caught it before I tried installing my rebuilt trans. Not ironically my trans just received a new input shaft and bearings, I can't imagine why.
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McLeod Twin Disc Clutch...
I'm replacing my clutch while I have the car apart getting the trans rebuilt. I strongly debated rebuilding that myself because the inside of transmissions are so damn cool. If anyone wants to try it Eat-Pez has some great notes on the procedure here (http://"http://www.v8rx7forum.com/showthread.php?40760-pictures-bowels-my-t56.html")? [Broken Link :( Hopefully we?ll get v8rx7 forum content back someday?]
Anyways, I was debating between a couple clutch setups and finally found a deal on a mcleod twin.
New vs Old
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3757Medium.JPG)
I'm pretty excited about this because it gives me a chance to learn something about a couple things I've never tried before.
1) fast reving (up and down) via slightly smaller diameter and less weight:
-The stock ls1 flywheel weights 23 lbs.
-Weight for the overall stock assembly is 49.5 lbs (used)
-The Mcleod aluminum flywheel (w/ steel floater plate still attached) is 16 lbs.
-Overall assembly for the Mcleod is 36.5 lbs.
2) twin disks
Doubles the friction surfaces. I especially like the fact that the mcleod floater plate attaches via spring straps so it can't rattle between the layers like some other manufacturer's twins.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3752Medium.JPG)
This setup uses the organic friction material that's good for ~800 hp but supposedly has great modulation. You can buy kevlar disks if you want to support up to 1200 hp.
One thing that surprised me was the shimming Mcleod provides. It's basically a set of close tolerance washers the adjust the height of the pressure plate starting position.
Shims:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3770Medium.JPG)
I was pretty careful that I keep shims in the original positions but when I was done I found that the two of the three fingers have a bit of play while compressed. The third is snug from the get go. I wouldn't be worried about it if they were all the same but the difference is bugging me. Anyone know if this is normal?
I also find myself questioning whether the three finger style pressure plate will be harder on the throwout bearing than a pressure plate than is normal. Given that it was a failed slave cylinder that got me started down this road I'd like to have a bit more confidence in what I'm putting back together.
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Shimming the new clutch
Joel,
Looks like you got a nice truck clutch there...LOL
First thing you should be aware of are the shims on that clutch. The reason the shims are there in the first place are to level the cover. Since this clutch uses a stamped steel cover it is not very precise. So what they do is use thin shims of varying thickness to "square" the cover to the flywheel. This is critical to a twin disk since having a cover that is off will cause release issues and uneven pressure on the clutch fingers. I had a LONG conversation with Red at the 2003 SEMA show about all this. I know for a fact those shims are not to be distributed evenly. This is the number one issue that guys using this clutch face. They get the clutch. Don't dear the instructions. Unbolt the cover fro the flywheel. shims go flying everywhere. They falsely assume that they are evenly distributed throughout the cover bolts. Clutch gets installed. It acts funny. They blame McLeod.
That is the reason why you have play in two of the fingers and the third is tight. The cover is not square to the flywheel!
Since you are in the LA area, I would drive that clutch to McLeod and have them service it. They should be able to tell you where all the shims need to go.
The other issue I have with that clutch is the Long style spring arrangement. With the stock style diaphragm spring there is a certain point in the spring travel where the effort gets a little softer. The point where the spring overcenters and it becomes easy to hold the clutch released. With the long style clutch, this is not the case. See the springs all around perimeter, between the cover and the pressure plate? Those apply pressure to provide the clamping force. Those are just like little suspension or valve springs. Their rate is linear. The more they are compressed the harder it is to further compress them. As a result there is no point in the pedal travel where it gets a little easier to hold the clutch pedal.
Andrew
Good talking this afternoon Andrew.
Well damn, it looks like I have some sleuthing to do. I was afraid the shims were going to bite me. At least I was able to recognize that something was off. It really would have sucked to blow up a brand new slave cylinder and start the process over.
I have a total of 18 shims, 2 each on the three straps of the floater plate and 2 each on each of the 6 mounts points for the clutch cover. I think just need to go through with a set of micrometers and measure the various stack-ups to be sure the pressure plate and floater are both dead nuts square to the flywheel. Looks doable but perhaps a pain in the @$$. If I can't get it square I'll cave on sending it back to Mcleod.
As a general FYI, Andrew had one more suggestion that I thought was solid and worth mentioning. One thing the t56 bellhousing lacks is a test port to verify clutch disk clearances to friction surfaces with the pedal on the floor. Per McLeod it's supposed to have 0.020-0.025" total air gap on each disk with the clutch disengaged. Depending on the result of measurements I may drill myself a 1.5" hole in the lower face of the bellhousing so I can measure the assembly operation with feeler gauges.
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I learned a lot about clutches this weekend even if I wasn?t as productive as I hoped. Forgive me if I blend SAE and metric units here, McLeod uses SAE in their parts but it was faster to measure metric as I was using an old-school slide type caliper.
My floater plate was perfect and had no issues. 0.020-0.025? is pretty easy to verify with feeler gauges.
My perimeter shims at the six mounting points for the cover were all exactly 0.5mm (0.020? each) and I did have two each under every standoff.
The fingers on the clutch were NOT riding at the same elevation which would probably destroy the throw-out bearing in short order if I leave it as is. Measuring relative to the disc below (which is flat and of constant thickness) one finger rides 0.9mm higher than the other two.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3802Medium.JPG)
Here's my height differential. This was touching on the high finger.
The fingers are basically levers such that static height of the finger tip is dictated by: 1) the location of the pressure plate relative to the cover (a pivot for each is cast into the back of the PP which gets pulled outward) 2) and the shimming of the clevis that supports the pivot of each finger (barring wear of the bushing in the lever which are typically fine). These clevis supports are shimmed at the factory and cannot be disassembled without compressing the PP to release the force on them (the fingers bottom out on the frame of the cover when not assembled).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3797Medium.JPG)
Shims under the clevis pivot point.
Another thing to watch out for in three finger clutches is that the axis of pivots at the clevis and pressure plate (the cast mounts) can get out of parallel alignment. One of my clevis supports was rotated slightly which explains why one finger felt tight and the others had some play.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3799Medium.JPG)
Note the two pivots for each finger
I tried running without two 0.02? shims (1 each) on either side of the high finger to intentionally warp the cover and compress the PP more in that location but the 0.5 mm drop resulted in a 2.9mm drop at the fingertip putting the previously high finger significantly too low. Bascially I need something like a 0.033? total shim under each standoff at the high finger instead of the 0.040? I have for the cover to get close. I talked to McLeod and they?re sending me some shims. One trick they do on occasion is to start with a hair too much shim and hammer out some thickness on an anvil. Supposedly 0.01? total deflection of the cover is ~100 lbs so I should be fine with varying compression of the cover springs locally.
--------------------------------------------
I need to offer a big thank you to McLeod for supporting their product line even in the case of my slightly used street twin. They sent me a stack of a dozen shims in various sizes I requested at zero cost, just so I'd be able to get this back on the road without sending the whole thing in. They do offer a complete rebuild service for about $450 that come new disks, springs, and redone friction surfaces.
I ended up running +0.004" on two cover mount points and -0.004" on one other. That was enought to bring all three fingers within about 0.005-0.008" to level with one another (tough to measure). I would see more than that at the fingers if my disk varies in thickness by 0.002" due to the lever arm at the fingertip. Figured that was about as close to flat as I was going to get.
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Trans reinstall and verdict on new clutch
Word to the wise. Don't try reinstalling a trans with a twin disk clutch without a clutch alignment tool. I've done a 5 or 6 trans jobs before and never had a problem going without. Here I used an alignment tool and it still took me 40 minutes to get the trans in the hole. I think part of this was that I was paranoid about the outer disk slipping relative to the inner thereby screwing myself so I went about it with a little less gusto than usual.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3809Medium.JPG)
Trans hoist helps. Note the shiny input shaft from Mikronite surface treatment.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3810Medium.JPG)
I built myself a little V-block to support the leading edge when I took this apart to allow the trans to ride at pretty close to the correct angle on reassembly. I had to loosen my headers to get the trans between them and reinstall the slave once it was above the collectors but it can be done with headers in place.
One weird thing? My trans and exhaust is no longer centered in the tunnel? [Ed note: It turns out my trans mount (the actual rubber block part) isn't perfectly symmetric. The upper holes are off by ~1/8" from the lower set that bolts to Grannies cross brace. So from match drilling at +1/8" I reinstalled it backward at -1/8" meaning the tail of my trans shifted ~1/4" after the rebuild. If you follow the direction the headers point backward and this meant my exhaust was off by 5/8" at the diff where my mid section meets each tail. Because the exits positions are fixed relative to their mounts the offset of the mid section shows up as one tail sticking out 1/2" further than the other. Last night I flipped the mount around making sure I used all the slop in the holes and my exhaust is nice and straight again.]
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3806Medium.JPG)
New slave is intended to be used with your existing input line and a new spring pin. My input was welded to an AN-4 fitting so I can use traditional stainless hose and hardline.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3812Medium.JPG)
Finally shield my clutch line properly. Shown are my fuel line (rubber and corregated), 02 sensor (red), clutch line (stainless, with rubber over the top). I finished the clutch line off with corregated over the top and routed both the clutch line and 02 inside that. No more worries here...
The verdict?
This clutch feel pretty good! Pedal pressure is the same or even maybe a smidge easier than before. It is a little weird underfoot because you don't get that over-center spot where it's easier to hold the pedal down. Modulation is great and even though this clamps down hard it's an incredibly easy car to drive. We?ll have to see how it goes with some use and abuse.
I've also decided that whoever said aluminum flywheels don't have enough mass to get you off the line smoothly was so full of crap it's not even funny. Yes the engine revs up and don't noticeably quicker but it's nowhere near as fast as a motorcycle and still easy to drive.
Six Speed Inc did the work on my trans and did a nice job with it. It even came with new seals front and rear. I need a lot more break in driving before I can really comment on the smoothness. One thing I will say is that I definitely don't recommend synchromesh transmission fluid due to the raging inferno it puts out heat wise through the transmission tunnel. I drove it like that for two days decided I couldn't deal with the heat and then swapped in Mobil 1 synthetic ATF. It was immediately back to normal.
The synchromesh looked so weird in the pan that I took a picture of that too.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3820Medium.JPG)
I also tried out the Mikronite surface finishing on gears 1-4 but have yet to notice any real difference with that...
Oh and the reason for all the rebuild. I took the car up to Northern CA for my ten year high school reunion. Some of the old bros got a big kick out it but man did it suck driving with no AC. My wife's a trooper but I still admit to feeling super red-neck when I bought a plug-in cigarette lighter fan. Pics with a great family friend and my host for the weekend:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3819Medium.JPG)
My senior class president went missing in action so I ended up planning the events (ironic since I never did student government back in the day). Grilled a stack of tri-tip in the park that afternoon and went to a nice dinner that night. The restaurant manager got the girls from Cazadores Tequila to stop by. Excellent margaritas.
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Time to spill the beans on the mischief afoot, the stack of parts has me too stoked to bite my tongue any further?
New Plans:
-255/40r17 tires with 17x9+35 wheels on all 4 corners
-A subtle widebody front Shine Auto?s 30 mm ?Forsight? replica.
-Two sets of wheels/tires for street and track with dedicated brake pads for each (Carbotech)
-Big brakes via a DIY front kit and upsized rotors in back.
-Redo a few things on the rear end eliminate a bit of remaining motion.
I liked the idea of running square tires (no stagger) but the fronts run out of space quite a bit before the rears do. I was running 235 fronts and 255 rear and I could have done 265 rears no problem. (Some have even done 275 rears but that requires some fender pulling as opposed to just rolling.
Details
First ingredient: +30mm front fenders from Shine Autosports (derived from Forsight fenders).]
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/fcforsightMedium.jpg)
FC3S: Vent-less FRP wide fenders - RX-7 Owners Club (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=590413)
I like these because of the clean lines and no vents. They?re subtle enough it looks almost stock but just a hair beefier. +30 mm should let me go 255s no problem so the width is about right. I?m adding an inch of rim up front but I?m already tight to the spring so I?m planning on a 15mm hubcentric spacers up front (made by Ichiban originally intended for an sw20 MR2).
I wanted to run longer studs as opposed to the spacers with lugs built in (for strength/weight reasons). Unfortunately the correct lugs weren?t available for the Mazda so I got to buy a set of ARPs (http://"http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&Ntt=1007713&searchinresults=false&N=+115") instead. The long studs that came with my kit will end up on ebay. Note: you could get away without the spacers up front if you played with the correct offsets. By my numbers you need to be into a +20 to +25 offset up front while maintaining +35 to +38 in the rear. I wanted the ability to rotate tires so I decided spacers were acceptable.
Big brakes:
I need to have my wheel situation squared away before I figure out rotor fitment and caliper mounting. That said I?m planning on putting my own big brake kit together. I bought a set of Brembo f50 calipers for the front?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/BremboF50-1.jpg)
The rears should be Corksport?s kit (http://"http://corksport.com/store/category/4ltv/2rx-Brakes.html") utilizing stock calipers. There are other ways of upgrading the rears but the e-brake becomes a serious pain to deal with.
I?m aware that there will be front/rear bias issues but I didn?t find anyone who I confirmed was paying attention to bias in the design of their kits for FC?s, so I decided to do my own. I already picked up an adjustable brake proportioning valve made by Russell so I?ll get to tune this myself. The added flow from increased caliper piston sizes will mean I likely get to do some brake booster/master retrofitting as well. Is it overkill? Maybe... Part of the point of all of this is as a learning exercise so we?ll see what happens.
[Ed note: ended up doing a Mandeville kit so again, these went away. One of Charlies customers is kicking ass with them]
Rear end:
I?m tired of the differential rocking and knocking on the bottom of my car. I?m wondering if part of it is due to a CV joint which has some play and I assume is going bad. The other possibility is that part of it is due to the stock rear mounts being old. As such I picked up a set of Mazda comp rear differential mounts. Obviously a snubber remains the most important mod.
I have a spare T2 halfshaft standing by (Thanks Andrew!) in addition to some stub shafts however Andrew accidentally sent me the other variety of stubs shafts than I currently use.
(http://mazdatrix.com/pictures/g-tra-di/turbostubshafts.jpg)
I decided to call it another science project and bought the earlier stubs as well so I should be able to take some measurement and determine if they can actually be interchanged between diffs or not. Either way I?ll have a couple of spare s4 stubs if anyone needs some.
Regards,
Joel
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Two Sets of Wheels?
Volk RE30s, 17x9+35
The other advantage to ending up in a 17x9+35 all around is that this is a classic EVO fitment for wheels so my odds of finding something good used go up. I went on a few of the EVO boards looking for track wheels and found a perfect fitment set of Volk re30s. However, I decided that they were just too nice to run on the track and go bouncing off of curbs with so I was going to pass but then the owner responded to my WTB post.
Long story short and these:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/donatevo1.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4080Medium.JPG)
Will become my street wheels. They're full forged, 16.25 lbs per, plus I dig black wheels on white cars so I?m pretty stoked.
In term of tires, I?ve been loving the Bridgestone RE050 Pole Position as street tires (good grip, good wear, startlingly quiet) so I bought two more slightly used in 255/40r17 to match my existing rears. I need to get them mounted but I can?t finish the install up front until I get moved. Given the constraints of school and work this may not get put together until Christmas.
Track wheels? Mustang GT 17x8+30
The 98-04 wheels from Mustang GT?s are a 17x8+30 and supposedly weight 17 lbs per [Ed Note, mine weighed 19 lbs per]. That would mean dropping down into a 235 tire but at least you can get takeoff 235/40r17s in R-comps from all the BMW clubs. I could also do some kind of 17x9 mustang wheel but the cobras are heavy (~24 lbs) and the FR500 knockoffs (~23lbs) use a +24 offset that would be hard use. Part of me says screw it: if I don?t find a buyer for my Blitz wheels soon I?ll just do the trade for the 17x9 fronts and run ?em as track wheels. The only part that scares me is replacing one if I jack it up. They?re forged so they should be strong enough but still?
[Ed note: these didn?t clear my big brakes so I sold them down the road]
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If you are talking about the Corksport rear kit, the ears on the stub axles have to be machined down to allow the rotor hat to fit.
Yes, Charlie that's the one. Thanks for the reminder, I know you'd mentioned this on the phone when we were chatting about your setup. I assume we're both talking about the actual driven flange of the hub that contains the wheel studs. I'm not sure what the official name is for this...
The question becomes whether the rotor is centered by the inside flange at the perimeter of the axle nut, by the exterior ears you mention, or both. That'll make the difference whether this needs to be done via precision machining or not.
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Progress over winter vacation:
Longer Wheel Studs Installed
Driving out the stock studs (sacrificial lugnuts are good).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4181Medium.JPG)
Stock vs ARP studs. The spline pitch is slightly different but the GM studs (http://"http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&Ntt=1007713&searchinresults=false&N=+115") are .003? bigger at the tip of the splines so they pull in good and hard. [Ed note: I?ve read you want a 0.509? knurl lug and the stockers at 0.506? knurl, I?m not 100% sure that what I ended up with but it seemed to work well and there was definitely a difference]
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4180Medium.JPG)
Installing with the help of a big washer and 1/2" socket:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4195Medium.JPG)
By the way you don?t actually need to remove the disc and brake for this. I found that out in on the other side of the car when I spotted the hole in the dust shield.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4197Medium.JPG)
My new studs were 3.25? and too long so I cut them back down to 2.75? I may have to cut them again as I?m ended up with less spacer than I thought (see below). I chased the cut with a die so the threads are still nice.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4198Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4200Medium.JPG)
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Widebody Front Fenders:
Shine Auto came with excellent recommendations on fitment and it shows. I had a few very minor pock marks to fit around the outside edges and one fender warped a bit so I had to try to pull it back in line. Beyond that all the door seams are nicely done. Fender vs. hood could be better but it?s only about 3/16? off over the entire length.
One thing that?s probably worth noting? Although Foresight (original manufacturer of these) advertises the fenders as +30mm I only found mine to be about +22 mm. It should still work with the 17x9 wheels and 255 tires I?m running but it?s going to be damn close inside and out. This is including shaving off about half of the inner lip on the new fenders.
I?d been told one common rusty space is behind the fender liner. I assume it happens when mine had a bunch of crap wedged in there. I think if you shove a hose into the gap you?d be able to clear this out I just never knew where to do it before.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4227Medium.JPG)
Front end of the car is practically rust free
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4228Medium.JPG)
Comparing fit of Shine fender...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4231Medium.JPG)
... vs. Stock (note the front end is on jackstands in these pics)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4232Medium.JPG)
The wheels used in all pics are 17x9+35 with ?? spacers and 255/40r17 tires. I still have ~5 mm to my coilovers so I?ll likely end up running 9mm hubcentric spacers for a net 17x9+26 offset.
The OEM fender liner looks like it can be spaced outward no problem so fender liners won?t be an issue.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4233Medium.JPG)
This was my first time spraying paint and I?m pretty happy with the results. Still need to buff it out but it?ll do for the moment. It feels great to have a white hood again. As mentioned the door gaps looked pretty good, note quite OEM but damn good for FRP pieces. Here's the installed version. I haven't adjusted the fender liners yet so I still have my front suspension cranked about an inch higher than it'll ride eventually.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4238Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4239Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4240Medium.JPG)
Now if I can get my clutch to behave and get those diff bushings installed I should be in business for real.
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Fender Lining Relocation
Front fender linings trimmed and relocated. The 15 mm arch drop of the Foresight/Shine fenders helps in having this land nicely because the liner rolls down and out if you pivot it about the bottom edge. It took a lot of shaving to fit right but came out clean so I?m happy.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4241Medium.JPG)
Bolts relocated
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4243Medium.JPG)
Staples relocated (note this is built in two pieces and the seam is stapled. I only altered the outer portion of the liner)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4242Medium.JPG)
Nice and tight to the lip (which I already shaved down to about a ?? during install)
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Rolling Rear Fender Lips
Since I was screwing with fenders I took a little jaunt down south to hang with the OC crew. Got to help finish off some rear end work on Danzan?s car and it made for a great afternoon.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4285Medium.JPG)
Nothing like a little help from your friends to make the time fly by. Mike sets up the roller while Dan and Steve provide comic relief.
The Eastwood definitely beats the old baseball bat method but it takes some getting used to, particularly the difference in stiffness at a spot weld vs. where between weld. We found that we couldn?t get enough drop out of the rear spindle to roll initially so we disconnect the rear shock do get in the right place to swing on the Eastwood?s radius.
Before:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3716Medium.jpg)
After (no more lip snagging for me):
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4291Medium.JPG)
Thanks fellas. Much love and it's always good to hang out with y'all.
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Custom Wheel Spacers
Front fenders weren?t quite as wide as advertised meaning the 15 mm spacers I bought were going to push the front tires too far outward. 255s can still be made to fit you just have to run less offset and trade out some margin on this inside of the wheel. I couldn't find what I was looking for so I got to build full custom spacers.
5x114.3 bolt pattern
9 mm thick (making total front offset +26 mm)
6? OD
59.6 mm hubcentric on the ID (stock)
70.5 mm hubcentric on the wheel face
I got a great referral on wheel spacers through CF Manufacturing in Sun Valley, CA. They only sell wholesale so my local wheel shop (Western Tire in Burbank, which offered the referral) had to order them for me. However, I only paid ~$80 for the pair of spacers vs. the $250 I was looking at for local machine shops that don't do this regularly. Western gave me the contact info for CF so I could confirm this was exactly what I wanted. You still may have to order through a shop but if you want to try CF I spoke to Bill at (818) 504-9929.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4318Medium.JPG)
Anodizing not included. That was a favor elsewhere. ;)
A couple notes on the specs above: I debated long and hard whether to make the spacer 9 or 10 mm thick. I?d been running a couple generic ?? spacers on each side so I was +12.7 in width at each front wheel and measuring inward to the spring. It?s not a good sign when you?re debating wheel offset to a single mm.
The Volk?s actually use a 73.0 mm ring but I picked 70.5 because that?s the hubcentric spec for my new track wheels:
99+ Mustang GT wheels 17x8+30
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4297Medium.JPG)
Finally found a deal on the club. Seems like I?ve been looking for these forever and I could never convince AndrewR to sell me his. :coolugh:
Although most folks try to maximize their tire on track these are a inch narrower than my street wheels. I dropped down in width because the narrower 8? width means I can drive it harder without fear of rubbing, they?re easy to find if I damage one, and because this size gives me access to cheap track tires which I didn?t find in 255s. I?m planning to run 235/40r17 RA1 pull-offs from the BMW World Challenge Series. Won't be as fast as a lot of tires but should be a ton of fun to learn on.
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Brake System Design Notes
I?ve been looking into brake system design and trying to figure out why I never liked the brakes on my FC. I?ve been through the system a couple times, have bleed the piss out of it and still don?t have the power I?m expecting. It?s not as if you can?t lock up the brakes you?re just pushing really damn hard to do so. I?ve replaced master and booster, I?m running stainless lines and have never had the results I wanted. I could play with brake pads some more but I don?t think that?s it.
Charlie (Bowtie7) turned me onto a book on brake system design that was somewhat helpful. One of the main points is that personal preference will often drive overall brake system gain. (Gain being the ratio of forces applied at the pedal to how much stopping force you get from the car as a whole).
I?m feeling kinda vindicated here that I wasn?t smoking crack and my FD did have ~38% more gain than my FC. It was also enlightening to realize that my camshaft might be depleting the vacuum available for booster gain.
Calcs are below. For example: if I build my own Mandeville kit I could jump up to an FD booster with a 929 MC and 13? rotors and my total brake system gain would be 78. Note this still has a big assumption about the pressure factor I?m seeing at the booster but it still explains a lot.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/rx7brakecalcs.jpg)
I updated the pic above as of 4/7/08 and I'm pretty sure it's right...
FYI: Specs are pulled from both generations FSM?s. In the FC page you can see that 4 piston brakes were available with NA boosters. This is why I always say that the only thing you must match in an FC?s brakes are booster and MC. All the others can be freely swapped to your heart?s content. (OK so rear brakes you have match caliper to disc ? vented or solid) but you get the idea.
FC Brakes:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/FCbrakes.jpg)
FD Brakes:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/FDbrakes.jpg)
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Wheels On, Big Brakes Teaser
Got the spacers installed last night:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4327Medium.JPG)
3mm clear to the coilover
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4329Medium.JPG)
Final stance
I also did a bunch of research on making a four wheel "mandeville" kit and I'm getting pretty excited about the possibilities. I ordered rotors. :D so here?s a teaser pics of things to come:
Front:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4333Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4335Medium.JPG)
Rear (hubcentricity must be maintained I know)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4340Medium.JPG)
If (most likely when) this goes into a production I'll keep you posted. There's been some descussion of big brakes for FC's going on at the club (http://"http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=725908")and I've already got a couple folks who will be helping me test this out.
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Hey joel,
this is Martin from tx man you did one hell of a job looks so good! sorta makes me wish i didn't sell it to you back then congrats man!
ps the cage was built by
Machine Shop, Lewisville, Texas, TX // Meyer Enterprises (http://www.mfgquote.com/profiles/MeyerEnterprises-185322.html)
Yo Martin!
Awesome to hear from you fella. This car's been a rock star and it was definitely worth the huge drive out your way. Hell, Tamara and I had a great time camping outside Lake Travis and hanging in Austin while we were there.
I'm still jealous of how much house you could pick up for your $$ near Dallas. I'd firesale a few of my toys if I could pull that off too.
Thanks for the info on the cage... That's been a mystery for a while now.
Joel
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Mandeville Big Brakes Fitment
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4420Medium.JPG)
Rear brackets installed.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4434Medium.JPG)
Rear all bolted up
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4450Medium.JPG)
Front bracket test fit
I also updated my brake calcs above. I'm pretty sure this is right so if you're changing things in the brake system you can use this as reference.
Although Mazda doesn't appear to have two part numbers for the boosters for the N/A cars that's the only way you can get different pressures out from an otherwise identical system. (Piston area is the same regardless of 4 piston or single piston fronts). I was talking with Charlie (Bowtie7) who mentioned he had a customer change from single to 4 piston front and solid to vented rears and had my exact symptoms. A booster swap fixed it for him. It appears that it does in fact matter where your booster came from. This means I could solve my brake bit connundrum if I choose to track down a 9" NA booster from a car that was originally 4 piston. However, it looks like the added leverage of the big rotors will just about balance things out so I might not need it.
-----------------------------------------------
Brakes are in!! No leaking, no vibration, no drama, just solid feeling brakes.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4567Medium.JPG)
I've got a set of Evo 8 wheels w/ r-comps waiting in the wings as the Mustang jobbies didn't quite have the needed spoke clearance... (Needed plus 12 mm clearance vs. my kit)
Still to do:
-Figure out the damn clutch issue
-Rebuild a the CV axles
-Oil cooler
-Install my oil pan baffle
-Gauges
-Wire OBD2 port, speedo, and backuplights
-Figure out the power draw that kills my battery if it sits for more than a week...
-Install small battery.
-Tune it
-Front suspension bushings
-Wet sand the front end and reinstall trim
-Put the chin spoiler back on
I swear these projects never finish... At least I'm done with grad school in June, then it's playtime...
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Clutch MC Rebuild
Clutch issue solved... at least for the moment.
I was really worried that the seals were going bad inside my MC as I had a ton of black crap in my reservoir.
Here?s the black crap.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4588Medium.JPG)
[Ed note: the corvette guys eventually proved the black that most LS1 owners get is clutch dust. More info on that here. (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbsy0LjUvE")]
I had been thinking that the duty cycle for a brake master cylinder (which this is really supposed to be) might be different from a clutch master where you see a full pedal stroke every time. I had a rebuild kit sitting on the shelf and I finally got to tear into this. The view from the top looking down into the MC is even worse...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4589Medium.JPG)
Disassembly is pretty easy it's just a single circ clip and everything pulls out the backside. The inside looked like it needed to be cleaned by I couldn't detect any wear on the piston seals and the walls were still pretty.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4592Medium.JPG)
So I threw it all back together (using the new piston just because I had it.) After a good bleeding it's happy again.
Overall I'm in agreement with the sticky clutch pedal trouble shooting writeup (http://"http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=742741") over at LS1 tech. The only thing I might mention is that rebuild kits can be had pretty easily so that might be an option before replacing the master. Also the "drill mod" doesn't really apply to our cars...
Beyond that he nails it. I couldn't believe that having skunky fluid could make that much of a difference in a pedal sticky. I had gone to bleed this before and convinced myself I was wasting my time and should just tear it down instead... Turns out that probably wasn't needed but at least I got to clean out the reservoir real well so I'll know if it starts getting bad in the future.
Joel
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Sometimes days wrenching just SUCK...
I had one hell of a Saturday yesterday trying to get my car ready for a Willow Spring event that would have been today. If you read this thread top to bottom you know I've been out on track once before and decided that it needed more brakes and more tire (and a pilot bearing for the transmission should help too :coolugh:). Well, the big brakes finished up a couple weeks ago so when I heard about this track day from a friend (who should be in attendance) I got all excited.
All I need to do was to fit up tires and while I'm at it, screw it I'm going to reinstall the factory oil cooler with some -AN hardware.
Well in the tire department I bought a set of EVO wheels with used RA1s not realizing they're not lug centric. There's a bunch of guys from the club who all run these... What the hell? I go buy the what looks like the correct lug nuts only to realize that they're scary loose in the holes. We're talking that the holes are like 1/8" bigger than they need to be.
Is this right? I though the evo used the same m12x1.5 wheel studs we have... Answer, yep I bought the right right lug nuts... BUT the wheels HAVE to be centered by the hub bore and I don't have the hub centric rings to adapt these. I must have called 60 wheels shops yesterday starting at like 6 pm and no one has these on short notice.
Damn, looks like I'm running street tires... This sucks but I can live with it. Moving on?
The oil cooler is pretty tough to fit as well. It means relocating my radiator backwards by a couple inches. I've got space to do it because of the vette engine accesories but it's still a tight fit and I'm breaking out my friend the dremel tool before long. It's getting late (11:00ish) and I'm supposed to meet my buddy at 5:00 am.
I'm not going to make it...
Well, I don't want to be dumb ass and ball my car up on track (while wearing it's pretty street wheels no less) because I pulled an all nighter to get there. I decide to abort the oil cooler for the time being and will have to be content to try out my new brakes and take it a bit easy if things get hot.
I'm putting it back together and I'm getting tired but I'm almost done when I my inner genius decides it would be a good idea to wire up my fan black box backward. Ya know ground to power and vice versa. I'm under the car screwing down the tiny brass lugs above my head and I know I've got it right because each wire is fitted for the perfect length, when suddenly it stars pouring magic smoke. Oh my god what did I do?
All the electronics are embedded in polyurethane or something so when it lets go the magic smoke is impressive. You've got to be kidding me. Yeah sometimes the car can be a love hate thing but I'm not ready to burn the sucker down. I'm yanking on the wire and it's starting to get hot... Oh but it's a happy slow burn so it's not blowing the fuse I have on it.
I finally manage to yank off the wiring lug and the smoke clears. I go to hook it up the right way but of course I shorted it... The fan turns on and it throws some more magic smoke for good measure. The bitter smell seems fitting to go with my bitter thoughts. DAMN IT!!!! and this was supposed to be simple job.
:bigun2:
NO, SCREW YOU LITTLE BLACK BOX... I'm not defeated yet. I go rummaging through my electronic box and find a big ass breaker switch from car audio stuff. I wire it up so I can turn on the fan and drive. It'll mean I have to turn it off every time I stop the car or I kill the battery but whatever, I have jumper cables.
However, when I finally test it out it blows like CRAZY. It's like a freaking wind tunnel. It seems my little black box never had to let this thing go full bore (at least while I was leaning over the engine bay). I'm not sure my alternator can keep up with this fan at 100% duty cycle. There's no time to test it so I lay on the concrete for a while and weigh my options.
-Street tires
-No oil cooler
-2 hours sleep
-Ghetto-rigged fan
-Still need to drop in the track pads for brakes
There's no way around it... Limping it around a racetrack with inadequate prep is really bad idea. I'm dead in the water and I can't go. :wtc:
Insult to injury #1
-My garage is tiny. I have a couple plastic crates in front of my car so normally I have about 8 inches to spare in front and about 4 inches to the closed door in back. I've been working on the front of the car so I had it on jackstands hanging out the back. As tired and bummed as I am I have to put the wheels back on and drop it back down so I can actually close the garage door.
Insult to injury #2
-I'm a young guy and I don't have a lot of extra coin to play with and I've just got this hunch that I'm not going to like SpeedVentures refund policy for the track day. (This of course is in addition to the other bad feelings because I messed up my car and I'm flat out bone weary.) I go inside and jump online. "Cancelation within 24 hours of start of event results on no refund what-so-ever".
[Edit 5/12/08... Speed Ventures was gracious enough to offer me $50 toward my next track event so it looks like my entry fee wasn't a complete and total loss.]
Damn. The event technically started yesterday so I wasn't even registered 24 hours prior to the start of the event. I tried to play it smart and be sure my clutch was up to snuff before I pulled the trigger on that. I wrote the guys running the event with a condensed version of the above just to see if they could do something. Maybe I should have flown out to SNS after all. Finally went to bed at like 3:30.
Well, at least I slept in. I guess that's something.
-
OK, grad school done!! Finally getting to play in the garage a bit and having a good time of it. Need to get the car track prepped so I can finally put some real use on my brakes...
OEM Oil Cooler Retrofit
I decided to cut out and re-weld my cross brace ahead of the radiator about 6 inches forward of it's former location. Spot weld cutters are nice...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4671Medium.JPG)
Shortened the net bar length by 3/4" because the frame rails taper and moved the passenger side bracket for the power steering cooler inward by about 3".
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4673Medium.JPG)
I finally threw down for a little 110v mig welder and I've been having lots of fun. Here's the result of burning it back in... I haven't played with welding gear since college. Maybe should have ground off a bit larger of paint but it was orginally held in place with 4 spot welds so I assumed it didn't need much. Note I also redrilled the holes to move the cooler ~1/2" vertically so it'll clear the splash guard.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4675Medium.JPG)
Power steering cooler still fits but you have to gain some length by straightening out the bends as it goes around the corner of the cross bar. It's a pain but it came out nice.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4677Medium.JPG)
--------------------------------------
Oil cooler hoses are undergoing assembly. I used:
-2x m18x1.5 to 10 AN male adapator fittings (some folks swear by the ones from Pegasus racing) I bought these from my local hydraulics shop, Orme Brothers, and don't know who made them.
-1x 150 deg 10 AN fitting
-3x 90 deg 10 AN fittings
-8 feet of stainless braided line (only needed 6 but get 7 just in case)
-3 feet of fire shield for running next to headers
-The OEM foam to protect in abrasion.
-Lingenfelter adaptor block (it should clear the headers but it'll be close)
At the adaptor block the lower fitting is output the upper input.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4695Medium.JPG)
Oil cooler. The 150 degree (oil inlet) fitting points the upper line down toward the frame rail where it lines up nicely with the lower 90 (oil return).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4696Medium.JPG)
And the end result...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4694Medium.JPG)
Just need to reinstall lower radiator mounts and button it up. I intentionally moved this far enough forward to leave myself space for the OEM AC condenser between the two.
-
Oil Pan Baffle Install
While I was working under the motor I decided to install the Improved Racing (http://www.improvedracing.com) oil pan baffle I had waiting in the wings. I wanted to do it without pulling the motor but I still needed some clearance so I lifted the block with hoist (just slightly) and dropped the subframe enough to yank out the oil pan.
I pulled off my intake manifold to be sure I wouldn't crush my MAP sensor and also had to loosen my headers for added clearance. It was still tight, but you can remove this from below.
Note the big gap to grannies engine cradle.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4681Medium.JPG)
Oil pan off
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4682Medium.JPG)
Baffle installing
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4684Medium.JPG)
This piece is pretty nice... The fitment was literally dead nuts perfect. Even gaps all the way around... Tight where it needed to be tight. Call me impressed.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4688Medium.JPG)
Hopefully it helps control the slosh in the pan as advertised.
-
Blown Motor at Buttonwillow
Most regulars on here know I blew a motor running around a HPDE track day at Buttonwillow. I was pretty bummed out and it screwed with my head for a while. I finally decided that you just have to be prepared for freak things to happen once in a while so I?m going to build it back better than it was but try not to go crazy and overdo it.
The other thread is dead so here are the pics of the carnage?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4710Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4711Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4736Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4741Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4743Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4744Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4749Medium.JPG)
Windowed both sides of the block:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4751Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4756Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4758Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4762Medium.JPG)
Finally here?s oil pan after I started cleaning things up. The amount of metal shavings in there was ridiculous.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4782Medium.JPG)
Note to self, if you here a tick tick sound from the motor that you think MIGHT be P to V contact shut it down immediately. Do not pass go do not collect $200. I heard mine about 20-30 seconds prior to the block failure but tried to limp it around to get back to the pits. Lesson learned.
PS I decide to cut open the pickup and see what it looked like inside.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4912Medium.JPG)
For a while I debated whether this could be cleaned up and all the little tabs I made bent back in place. However, the pickup tube itself turned out to be slightly bent so it got replaced.
-
Why Did It Happen?
This is really the key question? Note, there was a video of some instructor at the track day talking about how ?the guy in the white RX7 did well to stay in his car after he spun.? The first part, yes I did as they requested during the driver briefing in response to mechanical difficulties. As to the later, I never spun, so he was mistaken on that score but a lot of folks got up in arms over me ?concealing stuff.? That was pretty annoying. I got a loose a couple of times but I never put the car backward on the day.
I did, however, screw up how I measured my oil level (so much for disguising things)?
If you?re reading this thread in order you know I?d just added the factory oil cooler back in and installed the ?Improved Racing? oil pan baffle (note they have an ?improved? Improved Racing baffle with trapdoors now.)
For whatever reason, back in the day I?d learned to check my oil with the car cold and engine off. It?s very consistent and effectively all the oil is in the pan. I did this the morning of the track day and filled it even to the ?top? dipstick marker. I didn?t overfill based on Hyperion?s positive testing results with the baffle. The guys I talk to at the track tell me they try to check oil with engines running if possible or else fully warm, you shut off the car and run around front to check before much extra drain back occurs. The logic is that you want to measure the oil level while the oil is where it?s supposed to be.
It appears that oil from my cooler may have managed to flow back into the pan overnight so I measured more oil in the pan that I would have while running. Combine?
-high RPM (constant displacement pumps move oil in proportion to speed)
-with high lateral Gs (so oil in the pan is pinned to the wall and oil in the outside head can?t drain back to the pan)
?and I starved a can rod bearing and the rest is history.
A good baffle helps with slosh but only a dry sump or Accusump can help with the drainback issue. Having my oil level too low was just the straw that broke the camel?s back. It was a hard day for sure.
-
Plan for the Rebuild?
-04 GTO motor, bought mostly for the bottom end.
-Cam didn?t make it so I?m due for a new one? I thought my former specs were nearly perfect (and I did a ton of reading) so I?m going back to another Futral F13. Only difference will be trying a 112 lsa instead of 114. Idle will be a touch rowdier but it?ll help the midrange a bit.
-I?m adding an Accusump. 3 Qt with EPC valve (and thanks Charlie for the hook up)
-I?m changing my intake setup to run above the radiator using an MTI c6 intake and ls7 MAF/IAT combo sensor. This means running hood pins so I?ll be using Aerocatch plus flush locking pins and ditching all the standard hood hardware.
-I?m rerouting my heater hoses from behind the intake manifold to the firewall.
-I?m adding AC
-I?m redoing my seat mounting brackets as there were a few areas I thought needed fortifying. Hopefully I can also get the 5th point anti-sub belts hooked up too.
-I?m adding gauges for oil pressure, oil temp, and water temp. My custom gauge pod is almost done. (This will also mean relocating said idiots lights down by the radio).
-I?m going back to an ls6 clutch and Fidanza fly (Mcleod twin with alum fly is for sale if anyone wants it). Clutch came stock with my GTO so I?ll run it for a while then eventually change to a Spec 2+ with alum pressure plate once it dies.
-I?m also going to try a depowered steering rack (via the Flying Miata instructions).
-I?m finally also weeding down all the spare connectors leftover in the engine bay from its rotary days. Doing this after the fact has pros and cons but it does make getting the wiring functional initially a lot easier.
-You never know I might even get my speedo and back up lights wired? Someday I need to get the rear diff bushings swapped in too but that can likely wait till the car?s mobile again.
Lots to do before SevenStock/SNS so the push is on. Go baby go.
-Joel
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Dash Removal and Lightening
I pulled the dash both in anticipation of heater hose relocation and to let me rewire the harness in back for idiot lights. I took it ALL the way apart so I could epoxy some cracks and broken hardware mounts.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4902Medium.JPG)
Figured I'm unlikely to take it apart this far again anytime soon so I thought I'd lighten some non-structural parts of the steel frame. (Those windows are new). Dropped about 4 lbs doing this. I should have bought a knock out punch set as this was a pain in the rear job?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4904Medium.JPG)
Got to play with the welder some too.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4906Medium.JPG)
Quick shot in the process of extending the harness for the idiot lights (to be relo'd down below the stereo). 100% solder and heat shrink for me.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4907Medium.JPG)
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Custom Triple Gauge Pod
I've been planning on installing a few better gauges and had been eyeballing pods from the now defunct "5one5 Innovations." However, the 5one5 pod points the gauges a bit upward toward the roof and that kind of thing annoys me. APC makes a universal 52 mm gauge pod that looks like it's fit in the idiot like location pretty well with a little shaving.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4331Medium.JPG)
Here?s the work in progress and end result?
Trimmed (hole in bottom section of OEM part will help with mounting):
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4876Medium.JPG)
Filled voids w/ triple expanding foam, added body filler and a touch of putty:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4886Medium.JPG)
Semiflat black (looking grey from the flash and some dust but you get the idea):
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4897Medium.JPG)
Gauges loaded. Prosport Peak/Hold with audible alarm
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4932Medium.JPG)
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DIY Depowered Steering Rack
Found an EXCELLENT writeup (http://"http://http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=54847") on TeamFC3S.org by a gent called Titanium TT on depowering the steering rack on an FC... You probably also want to read up over at Flyin Miata (http://"http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1") where they have torque specs. Between the two you should have everything you need (and I saved all Titanium's pics and text in case the link ever goes bad), so I'm only going to enclose a few general pics of the process.
However, be warned it's a pain the ass job. I must have fought with the inter tie rod connections for almost an hour before I got them loose. I finally had to resort to a torch to warm things up and use a mallet in conjunction with a giant crescent wrench to get them loose. A small C-clamp does wonders for keeping the boots out of the way.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4914Medium.JPG)
Quill removed, it really is quite the stack of seals on this bad boy.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4915Medium.JPG)
These are the "springs" that titanium mentions removing...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4920Medium.JPG)
My little 110 welder had some trouble with welding this heavy of steel so I had to preheat pretty heartily to get it done (hence the pretty colors)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4927Medium.JPG)
Ports trimmed down and welded (I didn't go all the way flush because I didn't want to make the backside lumply as there's a guide that still has to slide in there)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4930Medium.JPG)
2 solid days from the time I started pulling the rack and a total of 8-10 hours later and we have finished results:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4929Medium.JPG)
If you can't weld aluminum you'll need plug bolts in m12x1.25x20 and m16x1.5x10 for the main pump input and return (assuming you have the two hole rack like me). I welded up two of the stock fittings for the rack hardlines on the other side.
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Motor Build v 2.0
I think it was Steve (Brismo7) who once posted up about the boost you can get from some local heroes showing up to give you a hand. Yesterday was certainly one of those days. If you're a newb who's hardcore enough to read this thread top to bottom I certainly recommend doing what you can to meet some local board members, just the motivation to finish is huge.
We didn't quite get to the goal of dropping in the motor (albeit it would have been cam-less) however it was still a stellar day and we did get a ton of stuff done.
Local heroes in attendance: Dan "the Man" Snyder, Steve Brismo7, Mike 65imp, Jack Jacklin6, and Andrew/Anjew "I do my best wrenching naked" Ruiz...
The teardown and rebuild of the GTO motor with some of the hot parts finally happened. I got my head back last week. 4 bent valves replaced, radiused valve job, springs/spring rates all checked out OK, some time in the hot tank and, new seals across the board and we're good to go. I'd like to take a moment to pitch Ollie's Machine Works (http://"http://www.olliesmachineworks.com/") in Van Nuys CA. I work with a large group of older gear heads at work and they all recommend Ollie. He's a bad ass, incredibly meticulous, and quite fairly priced. I was STOKED to be out the door for about $250 in head work.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4933Medium.JPG)
I finally got a pic of Dan working... :naughty:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4934Medium.JPG)
For the record, all the crew works hard, it's just that we're usually running out of steam by the time I reach for a camera so it's usually only Ironman Mike Lenhardt still working a torque wrench while I shoot and everyone else stands around.
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Poly Motor Mounts for Granny?s Kit
I decided to upgrade to Poly mounts while I had the motor out. After a bit of research I discovered that the rubber motor mounts that Granny's kit uses with the ls1 adaptor plates are from a 63-72 SBC chevy truck. That was annoying to track down, so for future reference there it is. Got mine from Summit.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4939Medium.JPG)
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DIY Oil Pump Porting
If you ever lunch a motor you can assume that your oil pump is done too. The pickup screen is the only thing between the pan and pump so any fine stuff that gets through is going to hit the gears and tear up the surfaces.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4951Medium.JPG)
Because I still had my stock oil pump on hand I decided to tear that down and compare porting (hence I could take the shot above). Spring rates seem to be the same everything else looked identical so I broke out the dremel and ported to match the lunched upgraded pump. Here's your author:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4965Medium.JPG)
And here?s what you?re going for? (Note my picture came out blurry so these are two shots of Sabre002?s work on Kukri?s oil pump? Same idea for me.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SabreOilPumpPorting2.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SabreOilPumpPorting1.jpg)
FYI I didn?t pack mine with grease (I assume this is made for the purpose knowing Josh) but you do have to make sure the gear goes in the correct direction as it has a chamfer on the lower face but is pure square on the cover plate side.
By the way, either my pump had been replaced in the past or there really is no such thing as an ls6 oil pump because the part numbers on both pumps matched and I could tell any difference in the springs or internals.
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Rod Bolts FYI (Beware Ferrules & Stock vs. ARP vs. Katech)
So why didn't we get the motor dropped in?
First, the ARP rod bolts don't mention anything about removing the ferrules (tiny sleeves in the cap side of the rod) and the boys were halfway through the install before I caught it. It's a little scary because the neck of the ARP's are about 0.030 larger than the shaft under head of the stock bolts. If we really had a 0.030 press fit it could compromise the integrity of the cap head. However, after a little investigation we found it's just about a slip fit even with the ferrules and added about 5 ft lbs of prevailing torque that wouldn't go toward bolt stretch. As such we torqued the bolts +5 ft-lbs over factory recommendations using the correct factory lube.
I'll put a call in on Monday to talk to the ARP guys and confirm that this works. The only reason we went through with the rest of the install is that getting the ferrules off the installed rod bolts looked it could result in damage to a bolt and we had to do all or nothing from a balance perspective.
Anyone engine experts have thought on the above? (But so you know I'm not especially interested in arbitray opinions)
In case anyone was interested here's the bolt differences:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4942Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4945Medium.JPG)
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Head Bolt Differences
The second bolt problem is that GM changed the head bolts in '04... The same exact ls6 block casting number through '03 uses a blend of long and short head bolts (not counting the little guys near the valley cover) while the '04 uses all short bolts. I couldn't believe it... The subtle lsx differences will drive you crazy. The difference is between ARP 134-3609 (what I have) and ARP 134-3610 (what I need).
So between the bolt issues and a slightly bent oil pickup tube (from the windage tray taking a beating right below it) we didn't make it to motor drop it. The cam is easier to install on an engine stand anyways.
I did get the engine bay cleaned up. A little paint (after a serious masking job by Jack and Mike)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4971Medium.JPG)
My driveshaft loop was just far enough toward the back of the car that it made it hard for the DS to dangle down enough to clear the diff flange for removal/install. Mike's a mad man with an angle grinder and here shows off his hand model skills with the result. What you might not see is the 75 deg chamfer we added to the rear lower edge to get that extra little bit of dangle.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4966Medium.JPG)
Working hard with friends is just so rad... I can't get over it. Who would have thought we'd have seen this pic a year ago?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4962Medium.JPG)
As we get late into the evening Mike proves he can work air tools and drink at the same time. DS loop reinstall.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4968Medium.JPG)
Special thanks to the crew, and special thanks to the wife for keeping us in food and drink all afternoon and evening.
Here's us...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG1313Medium.jpg)
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Cracked Rod Bearing Concentricity:
I found a weird misalignment in one of my rod caps? Cracked rods are only supposed to go together one way and once you clamp them down the seam all but disappears.
That was not the case for one rod in my engine after I torqued (and measured bolt stretch) a set of ARP pros.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4977Medium.JPG)
With some careful maneuvering you get access to the big end of the rod with crank in the motor and heads on. By the way I marked cap and bearings DR and PASS for driver side/passenger side. In some of the pics where you only see ?PASS? it looks like a pass/fail thing: it's not.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4978Medium.JPG)
I tried using some layout fluid prior to torquing it to see if the seam was actually shifting as I clamped it. Fluid comes out blue and is designed to scrape off revealing bare metal if there?s any shear force.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4979Medium.JPG)
Torquing it down requires some creativity. Can?t scratch anything?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4988Medium.JPG)
T bore gauges are kind tough to use so I measured it three times each way to get consistency.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4984Medium.JPG)
Here?s the part where it gets really weird? Measuring across the seam high to low both ways revealed a 0.008? misalignment rod to cap which is obviously not good (bearing to crank clearance should be ~0.002-0.0025?). However when I do the same measurement with the bearing in place it?s ~0.001 THE OTHER WAY, meaning if the cap was shifted left, the bearing seam is a smidge shifted to the right. This is exactly counter intuitive of the problem at the bearing surface I was expected and it?s only on one side of the bearing, the other is flawless.
The Dykem didn?t show anything unusual in terms of seam slippage. You?d should see pronounced points of blue showing shiny underneath that aren?t there (what?s seen in the pic is just from the camera flash).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4986Medium.JPG)
Rods are not interchangeable between all ls1s so be sure you know what you have if you ever try to mix and match.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4985Medium.JPG)
At the end of the day all the bearing surfaces looked perfect so I decided to run it. I just talked this through with my engine builder friend Ollie who gave me one last recommendation: He suggested I take a file and just smooth off any potential lip on the bearing surface to be sure it can't snag. It'll basically be a chamfer that runs 0.100" on the bearing surface at a angle to the seam so I'm only going a couple thou deep. Beyond that, he agreed with my determination.
The motor will see the full normal break in period before I start pushing things and I?m adding a few gauges so I should be better able to keep tabs on things already.
-Joel
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GTO vs. F-body Differences?
I can confirm that the belt spacing is the same for 04 GTO LS1 and F-body.
Differences I know of:
-Front sump oil pan (GTO) vs. Rear sump (vette)? you need the pickukp tubes, dipsticks and windage trays to match (technically you can cut down the GTO windage tray to be 3/4 length like the F-body?s but it?s a pain and takes quite a bit of cutting).
-The GTO has provisions for the dipstick in block like vette and f-body, despite it using a dipstick that penetrates the pan. This little plug knocks out from the inside pretty easily. Like my glam rock fingernail polish? (AKA Dykem)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4990Medium.JPG)
A side note on dipsticks:
My old vette dipstick tube got damaged in the blown motor so I had to order new parts. I went f-body just in case the oil level measured might be different (it's about 20 mm different for the GTO but being front sump I assume this accounts for the slope of the motor.) I can now confirm that both f-body and vette?s measure the same level internally. You can?t mix and match as the run outside the motor is different but I can at least rule out dipstick inaccuracy vs pan from being a possible cause of my blow up.
-The GTO using a self exciting alternator (which I hate and seems determined to suck 0.2 amp anytime the car is off.).
-The GTO also comes with the ls6 pcv and all the most modern LS6 goodies so that makes things easy.
-
Heater hose relocation?
I relocated my hose hoses to pass through the firewall in a new location so I don?t have quite such a mess behind the intake manifold.
These are the key fittings you need to find at Home Depot?
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG4975%28Medium%29.JPG)
It was an isle or two over from the section with most of the brass elbow and the like so it may take some looking. You can get plastic elbows from quite a few parts stores but I just couldn?t bring myself to trust them.
Bends on the heater core cut off and the tips slightly flared.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG4974%28Medium%29.JPG)
Here?s the full version on the inside of the car. It?s a bit sketchy having hose inside the cabin but so I?ll have to change this out every 5 years or so. I?m using the heat shrink hose clamps by Gates Co., the product line is ?Powergrip?.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG4976%28Medium%29.JPG)
It?s easier to see where the holes go on the engine back side?. Be warned you have to dodge a bracket for the AC unit inside the car so this is definitely a measure twice cut once job.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4972Medium.JPG)
I reused the stock grommets with my new firewall holes. Also note that I added short sheet metal screws to the heat shield because I had the glue go bad on a former piece which ripped off in the wind...
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Wiring Cleanup:
Car?s finally entering the put it back together phase. Did a startling amount of wiring/soldering cleaning up aftermarket power window switches and prepping the car to run AC.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4994Medium.JPG)
I fortified my stereo surround because the plastic is woefully insufficient?
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4995Medium.JPG)
Dash is back in (multiple sets of hands recommended for this job), all gauge pod wiring is run, and the pod itself came out awesome. Added a leather s5 steering wheel too.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4996Medium.JPG)
I?ve got the lengthening of the idiot light harness complete and run but that?ll have to wait until after SNS.
Motor mounts shouldn?t see any twisting force so I lightened those up too.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4991Medium.JPG)
Block is getting close. I can see light at the end of the tunnel for making SNS but if anything goes wrong I'm screwed.
Tonight: Finish interior
Tomorrow: Finish motor build (hopefully cam and oil pickup get delivered on time)
Wednesday: Drop in the motor
Thursday: Detail the car and finally buff the fenders and what not
Friday: clean up leftovers and maybe head for Danzan?s for the evening.
-Joel
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Cam Swap and Buttoning Up the Motor
Stock Cam out
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG4998Medium.JPG)
Futral F13-112 in (doing this with the motor on a stand upside down definitely makes it easier.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5003Medium.JPG)
Stock timing gear pulled
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5005Medium.JPG)
Adjustable timing set installed and P to V verified (check springs and feeler gauges).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5006Medium.JPG)
I needed to run ~2 degrees of retard before P to V was acceptable at 0.080 intake and 0.116 exhaust (you need 0.080 and 0.100). At factory timing I only had 0.054 clearance on the intake.
Started the rocker job but couldn't finish it because some of my Harland Sharp rockers aren't smooth moving anymore (could be metal junk in there). I think I'm just going to run the stock GTO rockers for a while because those are easy to change in car and it'll let me investigate without the time pressure.
I did flush all the oil passages in the pushrods to be sure I didn't have anything lingering.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5007Medium.JPG)
Still think I can make Seven Not Stock: Steaks n Beer, but it's going to be close.
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Clutch #3, Stock ls6 w/ Fidanza flywheel
Nothing special to report other than to say that the feel of the stock clutch is actually pretty nice all things considered. I definitely prefer it over the ?long style? McLeod twin. I just had too many issues with that thing.
Only bummer... It?s looking like the clutch issues are related to the clutch dust problem more than the style of clutch. Oh well, I?ve got a deadline to make and this is the fastest way to get the car done.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1764%28Medium%29.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1765%28Medium%29.JPG)
There?s a little bit of glaze to clean up but everything looks in good shape otherwise.
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Seven Not Stock: Steaks and Beer
Was up until about 3 am wrenching the night before when I realized there was no way I was going to make SevenStock 2008. Oh well, better catch a few hours ZZZs and finish the car right and then go straight to Dan?s place for the Seven Not Stock after party.
Why is it when you?re running late things seem to take forever? Intake manifold on, coolant refilled, route the gauge sender wires, re-wrap the engine harness. Throw the splash guard back on the bottom of the car. Wheels on? Quick wash? Motor takes a long time to make oil pressure cranking on starter alone. Did it take this long last time? Gotta go, gotta go, gotta go.
OK, It?s 3:00 pm car?s finally ready. It fires on the first try ( :D :D ). Father-in-law riding shotgun, and we?ve got the trophies and steak and rub with us and we?re on the road. That?s weird: part of the dashboard isn?t working and I can?t see my engine voltage [ED note, one of the two main connectors installed wrong]. Oh well, don?t care.
-Driving.
-6 miles down the road and my aftermarket gauges start dropping out one by one. That?s not good.
-Half a mile after that and the car starts to stutter and die. Gotta get it off the freeway. Dead at the stoplight. Screw it. We push it into the local Red Lobster parking lot, shove it into a space, and leave it. Call the friends we were caravanning with. They come pick us up. We?ll deal with the tow later. [Ed note: self exciting alternator not charging and that?s as far as I could get on battery alone.]
So I made the party but it?s my second time attending with no car. Still had a good time and had lots of complements on the BBQ and festivities.
Pics:
Dan
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1324%28Medium%29.JPG)
Steve
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1325%28Medium%29.JPG)
Andrew
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1326%28Medium%29.JPG)
Matt
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1327%28Medium%29.JPG)
Robert (hiding his rotary :D)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1328%28Medium%29.JPG)
Mark
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1331%28Medium%29.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1333%28Medium%29.JPG)
Award winners take a swim?
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1339%28Medium%29.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1341%28Medium%29.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1342%28Medium%29.JPG)
GNX7 and me (plus one of my new favorite shirts).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1344%28Medium%29.JPG)
LS7 = wicked
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1345%28Medium%29.JPG)
Best FC, Fastest lap of Buttonwillow (to date), Best FD...
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1346%28Medium%29.JPG)
Good times had by all? missing car not-withstanding.
-Joel
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Speedo Functional via Cable-X
Well, I've been driving the car for about a month now. I may try analyzing the oil at my next change to see if I can get any indication if that rod bearing is seated properly. One minor update... I finally got my cable x box installed. Decided that I didn't want it underhood because the driver's shock area is already so cluttered with the MC and all.
Went poking around under the dash and finally settled on installing it behind the dead pedal. It's just large enough and I can remove it pretty easily if I need access to the fuse box.
Laying it out... I had to shave down a few of those ribs on the back of the dead pedal part way to get this to package nicely.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5113Medium.JPG)
Hmmm, it appears they made my cable's drive portion a bit too short. It's supposed to interface to the silver bit w/ the encoder sticking out of the motor.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5114Medium.JPG)
Removed the stand-off and shaved down the threaded attachment portion.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5115Medium.JPG)
I needed a hair more than this because if the cable rides up toward the dash it can barely slip loose. I ended up mounting the cable attachment from the inside of the box and reassembling from there. Got to drill out the opening which meant some healthy masking tape to avoid metal shavings getting into the electronics. Here she is reassembled and mounted to the pedal with some 1/8" thick double sided foam (the bottom bolt of the box attaches but not the top one).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5125Medium.JPG)
And here's the full package... Obviously, there's a cover for the box not yet shown...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5126Medium.JPG)
It took a bit of playing with dip switches before it was right but if you have the spreadsheet it's pretty easy to trial and error your way to the correct result. I couldn't remember if we wired this from the ECU or trans so I just tried a couple. The ECU setting made it rev out like crazy when I was barely moving. The trans setting for my correct rear end info indicated 120 mph when I was really doing 75 so I just scaled the rear end setting. 120 / 75 = 1.6, 1.6 x 4.10 for the mazda t2 rear = 6.56. Input rear end of 6.56 to the spreadsheet set the pins and I now have a functional speedo.
It?s a little slow to respond if you?re on it hard but seems to work fine otherwise.
-Joel
PS spreadsheet attached with a few added notes at the bottom on wiring and how to conduct test mode.
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Idiot Light Relocation
Great information, as always. I like what you did with the ebay gauge cluster in the idiot surround. Very nice!
Thanks yo. I always find wet sanding theraputic for some reason. Here's the second half of the install (idiot light relocation):
Tear down the idiot light cluster and you find this board...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0016Medium.JPG)
I wanted to install it below my radio in the stock pocket but found it was a bit too long
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0018Medium.JPG)
That really was the best place for it so I decided to ditch the clock portion and cut the board in half. Resplice all the leads and you get this:
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0024Medium.JPG)
One end becomes a connector and the other gets potted with RTV into what's left of my pocket.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0066Medium.JPG)
Need to find the right shade of flat black paint to clean this up a bit and install my accusump switch in the right side of this but it seems to be working out OK.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/IMGP0065Medium.JPG)
BTW I tried and tried to figure out how to integrate the stock curved plexiglas cover only to realize that it was hard to see with the lights recessed and I would get some glare. On net I think the simple way I ended up with is best.
-------------------------------------
Prosport Gauge Rewiring?
I?m still loving the pod I built however, I discovered that the smoke lenses on the Prosports make the amber color option too dark to be usable in the daytime. As such I rewired these for white in the daytime and amber at night. That?s definitely the only way to run them in my opinion (it also makes the warning red face flash a lot more obvious).
My idiot relocation left me a bit of space so I integrated an override switch for the Accusump. [Ed note: this switch doesn?t change from ?on? very often but I found I?ve used it more than I expected already. It?s the stupid things where you forget to close your sunroof and have to turn the car back on to do so but don?t want to dump the oil charge.]
I finally wired in the check engine light option too. I already had an OBD2 port but didn?t have that particular idiot light functional yet. It?s a direct connect from the output of the ECU to the input wire on the idiot light cluster.
Here?s everything in the completed version.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0715Medium.JPG)
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I?ve been chasing some slop in my drivetrain for a while now and have recently learned a few things so I thought I?d post up.
Notes on Half Shafts (929 etc):
It started when I noticed some play in the stub axles that didn?t seem to be tied to pinion movement. There was a little bit of motion the inner CVs relative to the axles so I went ahead and bought three drivers side axles (two plus a spare) from the 88-91 Mazda 929 per this thread (http://www.v8rx7forum.com/showthread.php?50443-just-fyi-all-t2-rear-owners.html). [Sorry but the cross reference is probably gone].
When I finally got around to attempting the installation I found the axles were too long and looked guaranteed to bind.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5179Medium.JPG)
After talking to the tech support guys at CVs Unlimited they claimed I needed the PASSENGER side axle is the one I needed and they were sold out. However, junkyard inspection since then (per the above linked thread) finally proved, that DRIVERS side is the one. I just got sent the wrong thing. I guess the moral of the story double check length before you buy. CV Unlimited was kind enough to accept a return which isn?t necessarily a bad thing considering I found this video on what exactly rebuilding axles means.
From their site: http://www.cvunlimited.com/remananaxle.htm (http://www.cvunlimited.com/remananaxle.htm)
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6u1cZWiVAM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6u1cZWiVAM)
I knew there was likely regrinding involved but this video is CRAZY (jump to 2:10 if you want the part that blew my mind). That?s not the type of high tolerance machining I was expecting to see. That said, I did get one good bit of info out of the conversation? Apparently it?s almost always the outer CVs that go bad. The inner CVs usually last a long time because they operate on a greater surface area.
In the meantime, once I got the axles off it was clear that the play I?d seen was really in the diff and the axles were OK. If and when I ever have an inner CV problem I?ll send my existing axles back to Raxles (http://"www.raxles.com") for a rebuild and get new parts installed (as opposed to regrinds).
Most folks break stub axles anyways so it?s not like a different axle and cup really buy me much?
Instead I decided to rebuild the differential
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Rebuilding an S4 T2 Differential
The s4 diff seems pretty straightforward to set up. That said, I had a couple of strange findings in mine so I found that following the FSM verbatim yielded some strange measurements?
I started by pulling out the stub axles and taking off the cover exposing the diff. If you don?t have a factory service manual (FSM) you?ll want one and there are links at TeamFC3S... Second Gen RX-7 Performance Site (http://www.teamfc3s.org).
The backlash between ring and pinion was perfect, but I still seemed to have play in the stub axles so I decided to dig deeper and pulled the diff.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5190Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5193Medium.JPG)
There are a series of measurement in the FSM that result in two tolerance stack ups relative to the differential internals.
-One tolerance stack up measures all the clutch plates, springs, and the two halves of the spider gear housing. This is responsible for friction. My numbers were a little on the high side of the tolerance but still acceptable so I just switched a few plates around to give things fresh friction surfaces (not that the existing ones were in seriously worn, but why not)? and called it a day.
-The other tolerance results in clearance to the spider gears. You use thrust washers to define total backlash of the internal gears. The FSM is written such that you take 94.00 mm and subtract measurement to yield your total clearance. (Note that the FSM never refers to this as backlash but as near as I can tell that?s what?s going on.) If required you can buy thrust washers in +0.1 or +0.2 mm (Mazdatrix carries everything you?ll need).
Here?s where it gets weird. My total tolerance stack up for the spider gears measured 92.40 mm. That?s 1.60 mm clear on a tolerance that?s supposed to be 0.10 to 0.40 mm. That?s a HUGE variance.
I triple checked that I measured it correctly, I checked for appreciable wear in all the pieces and found none. I even double checked the calibration on my calipers. So then I measured the total space available inside the two halves of the diff itself (in case there was a miss print in the FSM and it was supposed to be 93.00mm minus your measurement). Total space was found to 94.13mm.
Turns out I actually DID have about 1.73 mm (.068?) total clearance in the inner housing stack up. I reassembled the diff without the clutch plates so I could measure just the spider backlash gap. You can see it in the pic here and I confirmed with feeler gauges.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5198Medium.jpg)
This is what caused the perceived slop in the half shafts. Unfortunately it wasn?t something I could solve +0.2 mm thicker than normal thrust washer on each side. Instead I took some more measurements and ordered shims from McMaster. You can buy steel shims in any thickness your heart desires using a 1 7/8? OD, 1 3/8? ID, which is close enough to the factory thrust washers that it should work fine.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5200Medium.JPG)
There are a couple things to be aware of. First when you measure the overall clearance with feeler gauges you need to be aware that total height of the spider gear stack up changes as it rotates. With everything tight to iron at all times the stack up rises and falls by 0.025? as you turn the spiders. This means that although I measured 0.068? clear I really only had 0.043 clear.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5201Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5208Medium.JPG)
I had bought some thin 0.004? shims with the logic being that adding one 0.004? on each side changes the total tolerance by 0.2 mm so it?s a small enough step to put me in the target 0.10-0.40 mm range. The problem is that this is a wear surface and I wasn?t sure I?d trust a thin shim in a sliding application never to bind or rumple because the surfaces aren?t fully supported. After playing with shims for a good while, I finally bought 0.015? shims and installed one on each side. McMaster sells a 0.020? shim that I debated about but decided that 0.003? was too small a clearance to try to run?especially considering I wasn?t torquing the ring gear on while taking measurements so I might lose some tolerance with the assembly fully torqued down.
By the way, the Spider Gear Outputs (the splined pieces that the Stub Axles insert into) only have ~0.042? play on each side until they bottom out. Essentially if your backlash was REALLY loose the spider gear outputs would rub on their housing instead of floating inside like they?re supposed to. My 0.068? (0.034? per side) clearance was just enough to avoid rubbing hard parts. No damage but I?m glad I tore into it to check.
On final install I put my 0.015? shims between the diff frame and the existing thrust washer on each end so they can?t slip out of the notches in the frame. (If you put them between the thrust washer and spider assembly they might.)
This was a test fit with a couple shims...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5202Medium.JPG)
Now it was just a matter of reassembly per FSM specs. My spring plates were installed backward when I opened it up so I fixed that (shouldn?t really matter given it?s just a belleville spring but this way should have a smidge more leverage and therefore harder bite). Backlash for the ring and pinion is set with threaded collars on either side of the main diff bearing races. You may have to make yourself a custom spanner wrench tool but that?s pretty easy.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5209Medium.JPG)
It looks like moving one tooth on the bearing adjustors (procedure: loosen one side first then tighten the opposite) changes backlash by 0.002?. I left mine at the factory 0.004?
Bearing preload is measured via the total deflection of the two bearing supports. It takes a big pair of calipers so be warned that this might require a tool purchase. (I only had a 6? set.)
My diff has never whined or had appreciable problems beyond the slop I just solved so I didn?t replace bearings or get into the pinion crush sleeve. I did however change out the front seal because I was starting to show signs of leakage. That took a little playing with a three jaw puller set and some shims to keep the jaws biting but once set up it came off easy.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5211Medium.JPG)
The front pinion seal has a nice metal lip on it so it?s easy to tap back in place with a hammer and a socket extension (used like a blunt drift).
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5212Medium.JPG)
The little custom tool I had was handy for retorquing.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5213Medium.JPG)
You follow the FSM procedures on the dialing in preload on the crush tube but it's pretty easy.
Diff done, and that?s one less thing to think about.
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Setting Pinion Angle & More T2 Rear End Support
I?d already been running a pinion snubber and some spacers on the rear diff mounts to help further support things. However, just for giggles I took some video while driving the car on jackstands. If you revved the engine and dumped the clutch in an of the middle gears I?d hear a knocking sound. Turns out the sound was the entire rear end rocking back and forth. This is exactly what I was trying to prevent with my spacers and the snubber.
Well I think I?m getting closer to a real solution. Rear end is now quite a bit more planted than before and I only rarely get wheel hop. I used Mazda Comp bushings throughout the diff but in hindsight I think only the front Mazda Comp mount is probably required.
Even with a snubber my stock front mount was starting to tear.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5177Medium.JPG)
Before I started this process I used an inclinometer to measure pinion vs driveshaft angles and found I had some room for improvement. Trans to driveshaft was right around 2 degrees but driveshaft to pinion was closer to 3.5 deg.
There are only three diff mounts (well 4 if you count the snubber). I tweaked them all to get what I wanted.
Front mount: Mazda comp, all the way. It?s much stiffer rubber and the rubber actually comes through the back of the mount instead of just being glued to a steel face.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5218Medium.JPG)
The mount itself is ~1 lb lighter than the stock mount. I had no plans to use the extension for the weight (acts like a damper) so I cut mine off and saved another 0.5 lb there.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5219Medium.JPG)
To help my pinion angle I needed to lower the pinion/raise the diff so I carved the front mount bracket at the subframe about an 1/8? deeper.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5220Medium.JPG)
Some folks weld an additional gusset between the two slots but this is usually because they welded the front mount solid (a 100% sure fire way of breaking parts in fatigue). I like the factory 2 hole washer plate so I left that alone.
Pinion snubber: Lowering the front mount in it?s bracket meant that I needed to shim my pinion snubber downward. I gave it about 1/16? of preload (interference on install). My old front mount sagged a bit over time so I wanted to give the new one a fighting chance of staying tight to that diff mount.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/tCIMG1390Medium.jpg)
Rear mounts: I had a plan that had me sorely tempted to try using the stockers. However on closer inspection I found some signs of cracking so I decided to drop in the Mazda Comp rear mounts I had on hand. Removal of the mounts is 50x the PITA that installing the new ones is. I used a hold saw to cut out the inners.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5204Medium.JPG)
The perimeter metal bits are two hemispheres but they?re so damn tight that I couldn?t budge them despite repeated hammering. I finally took a jigsaw and cut into the bushing in about 8 places to relieve some of the stress. Then I was finally able to beat the suckers out.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5205Medium.JPG)
Install was a snap. Used a bit of grease on the outside (both to help it slide and to help shield against dissimilar metal corrosion). Also found that a stub axle works great as a driver. I used a spare, but if you were careful and wrapped the sensitive parts I could see using one of the real ones. Obviously a few pics are out of order from what I really did as this is much easier when the cover is detached from the diff carrier vs. the fully assembled rear end...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5207Medium.JPG)
So what?s this added support plan I keep talking about? Previously I?d build some spacer plates to make the crown looking rubber support from below engage better. Upon closer inspection I realized I had enough threads available on the big frame studs so instead of using a spacer I cut my diff mounts down and gave the crown about 1/8? of interference.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5217Medium.JPG)
I also cut down the mount on the topside. This will change your pinion angle so be sure it?ll help before doing so. However, in my case I both helped the angle and made it so that the perimeter rubber will bottom out on the underside of the car earlier. This is still rubber so noise inside the car barely increased and the payoff was huge. This also means that my diff is about 1/8? higher at the low point which is helpful when using some jacks to lift the rear end.
Lots more thread protrusion than normal... (probably should have taken the pic prior to painting the raw steel where I cut it off but you get the idea)
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5221Medium.JPG)
Better yet, I don?t have to run the spacers which were never quite big enough anyways. One of the crown bits had splayed around the edges of my spacer previously and had started to cut the rubber. No big deal because I had spares.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG5222Medium.JPG)
Upon driving the car I can finally say I?m getting close to the rear suspension I?ve always wanted. I?d still like to try the spherical bearings for the control arms as I agree that individual camber adjusters (AWR or MMR) can create some misalignment. I?m also trying out the no-rear swaybar setup. It?s counterintuitive to me as the car still plows in some situations but it?s supposed to help the linkages move more freely so I?ll give it a try and see what happens. Too many folks swear by the setup not to give it a try and see for myself.
-
Neither of us run a rear bar and the cars turn in beautifully. Both of us are convinced that a stout front bar and a strut brace help with this. Early on I talked w/ Roger about the kind of lazy initial turn in and it was suggested to stiffen the front to slow down the weight transfer. It worked. The car becomes nuetral and very responsive. The RB front bar is not enough to get what we want on track but it is ok for street.
A strut bar is on my to do list. I just bought all the materials to make a DIY version of the AWR bar. I like the fact that it doesn't go forward and around like most of the off the shelf bars but I wasn't sure it would clear my fuel rails and I kinda wanted the challenge of making my own. Here's theirs...
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/AWR-FC-strut-bar.jpg)
If I'm thinking about this right, a strut bar should be more beneficial on an FC than an FD due to the MacPherson strut layout. In corners it should primarily see tension so I'm trying the turnbuckle style.
I'll definitely be looking forward to Bob's review. You guys are doing all the development work I'd love to get into. Good news is that I'm planning on working on the accusump install in the next week or so while I have some down time.
Merry Christmas!
PS Sunburn, I'm looking forward to great things from your build. You definitely seem to have your head screwed on straight.
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WOW! From a machinist perspective, watching that video from CV Unlimited hurt me. I am stunned with that horrible workmanship.
Seriously! Talk about mind boggling... In case anyone missed it the link is here (http://"http://www.cvunlimited.com/remananaxle.htm"). Fast foward about half way through as the first part is boring.
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Head Gasket Annoyances
A warning for folks playing with heads/cam?
I had a slow water leak down one side of my block at the rear of the passenger side head. It turned out to be two issues.
The first part was minor? the ls6 steam tube block off plug had been installed with a bolt that was a hair too long so it bottomed out and didn?t quite clamp correctly.
The second part of my issue appears to be HUGE pain the rear. Get this: GM MLS (multi-layer steel) head gaskets are NOT COMPATIBLE with all GM LSx heads!
The problem results from the evolution of LSXs from graphite head gaskets to MLS. The old graphite head gaskets stuck hard and were pretty messy to change out. As such, GM designed a little window relief on the exhaust side that lands on the #3 or #6 cylinder depending on the head. This relief exists so you can stuff a screwdriver or prybar in there and break the head loose on disassembly.
Faster forward a half dozen years and the MLS gaskets don?t require nearly the same force to break them loose. The relief windows go away and the gaskets are designed to seal on the true perimeter of the head. The problem is that in sealing the head gasket GM also runs a thin rubber bead at the edges of the clamping surfaces. If you?re using heads with windows (like I am), the window MISSES the rubber bead and only tries to clamp the metal next to the bead.
There?s just enough of a pressure difference in the clamping load that the head weeps coolant. You?re only solution is to either run the old nasty graphite gaskets or pick up the expensive MLS gasket like Cometics that don?t use the rubber bead.
I guess you could fill the relief with TIG weld and resurface the head, but that?s not exactly trivial either.
Unfortunately it means I need to pull my heads and that?s lame considering how long I?ve been messing with it already? Anyone tried doing a head job by removing the brake booster instead of pulling the motor?
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Head gasket fixed...
I ran into a problem with my GM MLS head gasket such that it would weep coolant. Thankfully, Rosey was right, the both heads can be pulled with motor in the car but it?s a pain in the ass and that last bolt is tricky.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0613Medium.JPG)
Here?s the little leave out window cast in that caused me so much grief:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0609Medium.JPG)
This means you can?t run GM MLS gaskets because the rubber trim around the edges of the sealing surface make it so it can?t seal.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/nal-12498544Small.jpg)
I either had to go back to graphite gaskets or step up to an aftermarket MLS gasket. Given the fact I suspect this may not be the last time I have these heads off I went with a set of 0.040? Cometics just for the cleanliness factor. I believe stockers are 0.052? so this will bump my compression a hair too. I?d already verified piston to valve clearance (and dialed that in with an adjustable timing set) so I should be good to go.
The question was whether or not to prep the Cometics with copper spray. There?s some debate whether this is a good idea or not but they more I looked into it the more it made sense to me to go for this. It should help to seal any irregularities in the surface and it?s shouldn?t damage the gaskets in any way. I?d spent about 4 hours cleaning the mating faces on heads and block already but a little extra precaution seemed wise.
Here?s mine prepped with Permatex Copper Spray-a-Gasket. Internet wisdom says you install it while still tacky.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0610Medium.JPG)
Heads were retorqued w/ ARP moly assembly lube per ARP?s instructions: 70 ft-lbs on the big bolts, 23 ft-lbs on the little guys.
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Winter Mods
I just went through a more intensive round of winter mods than I?d really planned on. Par for the course for v8rx7s?
It always starts with something simple: in this case I wanted to try a different intake and add an Accusump. In the end what happened?
-Hood pins (AreoCatch locking flush mount) w/ SS hardware
-Hood trimming
-Hood shocks
-Relocate all engine relays
-Wire up AC electrical (not installed yet but everything?s ready)
-Better ground wires
-Reroute engine harness grounding
-Finish idiot light relocation, repaint a portion thereof
-Mount Accusump
-Mount 5th point submarine belts
-Wire/plumb Accusump
-Replace/relocate coolant overflow
-Eliminate all hose clamps
-Create a brake MC brace to the shock tower
-Replace lower radiator hose (heat shrink clamps on splice)
-Chase coolant leak (turned out to be head gasket :wtc:)
-Pull/clean heads
-0.040? Cometic head gaskets
-Rebuild part two on HS rebuilt rockers
-Add header wrap w/ safety wire and sealant
-Relocate horns
-Trim/section side to side cross members
-Intake fitment
-Create LS7 MAF mounting tube
-Create intake shroud
-Rewrap entire engine harness
-Trim fuel rail covers for simpler install
-Reassemble everything
-Dyno tune
At least the end result came out clean...
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0706Medium.JPG)
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While I had the heads apart I decided to address a few other things: namely rework valve rockers (again), add header wrap, and clean up some hoses.
Rebuilt Rockers (again)
When I first went to put my motor back together post blow up I noticed that a few of my Harland Sharp rebuilt rockers had bearings that were no longer smooth (action could be described as downright crunchy on a few). Because I was trying hard to make SevenStock / SevenNotStock at the time I had thrown in a stock set of stockers to get the car running because I had them available. However because I had to tear down the heads anyways I wanted to get the upgraded version back in so I called and talked to the guys at HS and ended up sending my modded rockers back to them for an evaluation.
I was kinda afraid I was screwed, that it was my fault that that my rockers had been damaged by particulate metal going through them when the engine blew. The gents at Harland confirmed the trunions were toast but said they?d had a new bearing design and replaced everything for me for only a $30 service charge. Considering the original mod was $250 I was pretty stoked about that. A big thumbs up from me to Harland Sharp for great customer service.
Oh, and the new trunions have hollow ends so they?re even a bit lighter than before.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0641Medium.JPG)
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Header Wrap
To pull the heads you obviously pull the headers.
Well, it always bothered me how close my fuel line ran to the JTR headers. It?s literally only an inch clear and I couldn?t seem to do much better without running smaller brake booster or doing some really crazy things with the routing (dodging around the steering linkage or putting it in the wheel well etc). I?d already done a couple layers of corregated tubing and insulation on the fuel line itself but I decided to double up on my insulation and wrap the headers as well.
FYI 50? of two inch wide header wrap only does about half of a set of JTR long tube headers assuming you use 1/8 to ?? overlap like I did? You need ~100? if you want to do a complete job on both sides. However 50? should be enough to keep heat off the fuel line and off my starter (the two areas I was most concerned about cooking). Plus the bottom portion is more likely to get wet regularly so leaving it bare was OK by me.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0596Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0597Medium.JPG)
Beware that each primary is a different length so you?ll want to do some math as you go and budget your wrap accordingly. CoolTech recommends sealing header wrap with a follow-up coating. So far as I can tell it?s similar to header paint (a resin based product that only really cures after heated) so that?s what I used to help these retain a little less water if they get wet. End results:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0708Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0707Medium.JPG)
Note the safety wire used on the ends (I used about 3 pieces of stainless wire on each free end of the wrap and one on the starting ends shown). They sell SS straps you can use but this seemed simpler, lighter, and cleaner on net.
Header wrap is based on fiberglass which means it?s itchy crap to work with so plan on doing the entire wrap job in one session. It took me about 5-6 hours to get it all done.
You might also note the new 2 AWG ground wire in the above pic; there?s now one on each side. This might be overkill but I wanted to match the 1/0 input cable from the starter. Soldering with blow torches is fun!
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Heat Shrink Hose Clamps
Because I had the coolant drained for the head work I also figured this would be a good chance to clean up some coolant runs as well. I ditched all my worm gear hose clamp and went with the OEM hose clamps that use bolts (see pic above for the heater hose runs).
I also replaced my lower radiator hose because my old one felt just a touch soft and I thought a bit of preventative maintenance was in order. Ended up having to splice it again because I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for but I used the sweet heat shrink hose clamps that AndrewB70 turned me onto. They're made by the Gates Corp and marketed under the name PowerGrip. They come in a variety of sizes. The cheapest source I found was Moss Motors (http://"http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=65123"). Pardon the crappy pictures but you get the idea.
[Edit 11/16/11: I was going back to order some more of these and found Moss didn't have the size I needed. I found them at RockAuto but it takes a little digging. When you hit their site search via "part number search" and enter 329** for the part number and Gates for the manufacturer. That'll get you the full line of clamps.]
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0645Medium.JPG)
I previously used the same stuff on my upper radiator hose. Everything's working great and most importantly, leak free.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0646Medium.JPG)
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Accusump Install:
[Ed note: For a good background read on the how and why of accusumps try this thread... (http://"http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=659.msg7050.html#msg7050")]
I?m running a 3 qt Accusump and decided I couldn?t well fit it in the engine bay? Conceivably you could put it directly behind the front bumper support but if I was ever in an accident it?d be toast plus I wanted the weight further back. As such, that pushed me toward the driver?s storage bin (battery?s already in the passenger side).
After pulling the bin and playing with it for a while I decided that I?d mount one end on the frame rail and the other to the face of the bin frame. Per instructions the oil end is slightly uphill so air bubbles get purged during pre-oiling prior to the engine cranking.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0026Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0029Medium.JPG)
Overall assembly
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0030Medium.JPG)
The upper portion of the bin is then trimmed to fit and allow gauge readings.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0031Medium.JPG)
Mounting it up high like this tends to keep the bin viable for storage needs as well, you just can?t put anything hard/heavy in there which could ding the Accusump. At least it?s out of harm?s way as far as the trunk is concerned.
Accusump hardware:
I used the top rear location and -8 AN hardware everywhere. From sump to engine it runs:
Accusump in drivers bin
-90 f AN to hose along frame rail
-90 f AN out firewall below fuse box
-oem pressure gauge w/ m-f AN gauge adaptor (shows accusump pressure)
-pipe to m AN adaptor
-electric check valve
-pipe to m AN adaptor
-pressure switch w/ m-f AN gauge adaptor
-aftermarket pressure gauge w/ m-f AN gauge adaptor (shows engine pressure)
-90 f AN to short hose behind plastic fender liner
-90 f AN through firewall at fender (below clutch MC)
-m-m adapator
-straight f AN to hose along firewall lip
-straight f AN
-m16x1.5 to m AN adaptor at block
Firewall holes are always a bit nerve racking. Here?s where my first one landed. I measured this about 4 times before I went to town with the hole saw.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0099Medium.JPG)
Firewall grommets? I love grabbing spare body plugs while wandering the junkyard. I used a few I had lying around to protect my oil lines in both places I went through the firewall. If you ever need to cut near perfectly round holes in something rubber a hammer and a spare bit of pipe do wonders. Lay rubber over the end of pipe and tap until the rubber is cut all around. I intentionally offset my holes based upon expected exit points. Pardon another crappy picture, this new camera?s autofocus is lame?
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0106Medium.JPG)
Accusump plumbing finished:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0525Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0526Medium.JPG)
Here's all the valve stuff tucked behind the fender (note I have the shine/foresight wide body fenders so you may have to plan carefully to dodge the trim mount sticking through.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0647Medium.JPG)
Don?t forget you need access to the fender mount nut that?s located about mid door height so you need to plan a way to snake a couple extensions horizontally past all this to tighten that last guy. Still, I?m pretty happy with the end result.
I think I may daisy chain in an LED so I know when the Accusump is activating, but I get a general idea by having the OEM oil pressure gauge reading on the Accusump side.
I?m running oil to the dipstick full line with about 60 psi in the sump.
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It?s hard to get this deep into the car without doing some random bits as well.
5th point belts
While I had the rear bins out I went ahead and mounted the submarine belts (to date I?ve only ever run 4 of my 5 point harnesses.) I already had some plates and hardpoints welded to the cross member behind each seat. It?s not really an ideal location as it?s a bit far back and I?d rather have it below the seat but I?ll just run these on the loose side and call it OK. Here?s the one the mounts just in front of the battery. I notched the face of the storage bin frame on each side to allow the run.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0027Medium.JPG)
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Brake pedal brace:
I?m getting closer and closer to the rock hard brake pedal I?d love to have and one of the things that really helped was trick little brace I built that prevents firewall flex by supporting the end of the MC from the shock tower.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0710Medium.JPG)
Can?t take credit for the idea here as this was something I ran across on the club.
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New Intake Tract Prep
Everything that follows is somehow tied into my new intake tract. FYI This is all based around the MTI Xcelerator intake for the C6 vette. I believe the company folded so if you want to try this your best bet is some of the Corvette forum classifieds. Be warned that it ended up being a damn big job. You?re about to fully occupy pretty much the entire space ahead of the radiator so you have to move/replace quite a few things to make this happen.
Remove hood latch structure and add hood pins.
Decided on the Aerocatch flush mount locking pins...
Uprights installed?
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/IMGP0005Medium.JPG)
One pin goes in the hood prop rod hole (prop rod is soon going away as well) the other gets drilled in the mirror spot after you clamp a bolt in place and bend the metal so the pin will be straight up and down.
Triple check the hood alignment, add a dab of grease on the head of each pin so you know where they hit and start drilling.
One you have the main holes you mark out the perimeter and start the real cutting.
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/IMGP0007Medium.JPG)
Like the green hair?
Hole saws rough out the shape on either end
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/IMGP0008Medium.JPG)
Getting closer using a dremel
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/IMGP0010Medium.JPG)
I was worried about the top two layers of hood warping when I clamped them (the hood is actually three layers thick here) so I bondo'ed between layers to give myself a solid clamping surface.
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/IMGP0012Medium.JPG)
Trim a bit more and the catches will finally sit flush so you can drill the perimeter holes. Clamping two layers means you can't use the stock hardware but black oxide bolts will rust almost instantly anyways so I went stainless. I used 10-32 x 3/4" screws which required a bit of additional countersinking but it came out good.
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/IMGP0067Medium.JPG)
Nyloc install from the bottom requires holes big enough for nut and socket (I actually used a fine pair of needlenose).
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/IMGP0068Medium.JPG)
Stainless hardware is a good idea if you don?t want these to rust.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSC_0017Medium.jpg)
Just for giggles while I was messing around I rim-striped my wheels red... Came out pretty good if I do say so myself.
(http://frijolee.ls1fc.googlepages.com/DSC_0019Medium.jpg)
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Hood Shocks
I built my own hood shocks using McMaster Carr components. They?re based around 50 lbf gas springs with a ~4.2? stroke (you?ll need something stronger if you have a steel hood).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0606Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0607Medium.JPG)
Since then I found a company selling hood shocks complete for the FC on ebay. If I had to do it over again I?d have definitely pulled the trigger on those instead as this job was a pain. There?s a thread on RX7 club (http://"http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=796986") that discusses them.
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Move/Replace Coolant Overflow Tank
I debated strongly trying to hunt down the coolant tank from an 86 FC base model (mounts by main fuse block) but I?d already cut off the mounting studs near the driver side shock tower and it was looking to be an extraordinarily long run to my radiator cap. Inside I went wrecking yarding and found a random overflow tank from a Toyota product that looked it would fit well dimensionally behind my passenger side headlight. This required a new mounting bracket. This was just a piece of 1/16? aluminum plate that I formed up by hand to bolt into some factory holes behind the passenger side headlight. I then riveted to the remaining piece of the OEM Toyota bracket and called it a day.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0108Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0109Medium.JPG)
The final version is both simple and clean with an exceedingly short hose run.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0642Medium.JPG)
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Relay relocation
I started but cutting out the relay support
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0070Medium.JPG)
I then welded a short piece of this back behind the driver?s side headlight with all 4 relays I plan to use (and a 5th spot open in case I expand for some reason.) Throw a couple coats of primer base and clear on there and then you just shorten and solder all the wires from the driver?s harness to fit it up.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0643Medium.JPG)
While I was in there I made a few more tweaks to the harness grounds and the like so at the end the entire harness was then wrapped in GM OEM harness wrap. It?s a lot like non-adhesive electrical tape, but it never gets nasty over time. I bought some a while back from Year One for $10 a roll. Year One now charges about $20 a roll so when I spotted an ebay auction for the good stuff for $2.50 a pop I loaded up. Yeah stocking stuffers!
PS It helps to have relo?d your battery but it seems like most folks on here do that anyways.
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Cutting for Intake Clearance
Once you have a bunch of free space created you can finally start fitting the intake itself.
Upper cross member backing removed. (The remaining lip was subsequently folded under.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0075Medium.JPG)
The lower cross bar (the one that used to support the lower half of coolant overflow tank) is cut, but I left the two tips in place so I?d have somewhere to mount my horns. The black plastic frame that supports the nose is left intact.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0079Medium.JPG)
Final test fit (note: the intake itself has to be pretty much as far rearward as you can get it.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0076Medium.JPG)
Side view (Note: I had to run it that low to clear the hood so although the results were good this still isn?t as perfect as it could be):
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0077Medium.JPG)
Now you start getting into hood trimming (you just go little by little)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0095Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0097Medium.JPG)
Here's the finished underside painted.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0098Medium.JPG)
I can't emphasize enough how damn tight this really is. Poly motor mounts are recommended to lessen engine motion if you try this.
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Intake Tube and MAF Interface.
This is 4? OD 1/16? wall aluminum tubing. I needed ~6? but bought a foot and was glad I did when I discovered needed a bit more tube length to fit the MAF properly.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0091Medium.JPG)
My inspiration was this Lingenfelter piece (http://"http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=L480000000&Category_Code=") but I wasn?t about to pay $300 when a $75 sensor and $30 in materials would do fine. Connector was picked up from EFIconnection (http://"www.EFIconnection.com").
Silicon couplers are a 4-4? straight at the TB (OD of stock TB is 3.9? but it?ll work) and a 4.5-4? reducer coupler at the intake. I got mine and the associated clamps from FroozenBoost (http://"www.FroozenBoost.com"). You?ll trim these too before you?re done.
MAF lands pretty well in the center of the tube:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0092Medium.JPG)
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Shroud
Everyone needs a cardboard template right?
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0617Medium.JPG)
Transfer to 0.032 6061-T6 plate (1 ft x 4 ft does the trick)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0618Medium.JPG)
Round corners were made using a hole saw with a thick piece of aluminum backing it to keep the centering drill centered. I figured I might tear the face up if I didn?t do this. A knock out set would be a pretty trick way of doing this as well. The rest of the profile was cut with a jig saw with a fine toothed blade. A sander, angle grinder, and deburring tool finished it off. I eventually added a bit of edge trim as well.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0620Medium.JPG)
Prior to final mounting a few of the thumb screw bolts (used to help a frame clamp a large rectangular K&N filter in place on the bottom side) had to be swapped out something lower profile so the lip could tuck underneath the edge of the cross member.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0624Medium.JPG)
Push clips were used so this bolts in like from the OEM shroud pieces from the factory.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0622Medium.JPG)
---------------------------------------------
[Note: After the fact I found I keep breaking these OEM clips. Not sure they were just old and didn?t like being cycled so much or if I ended up with sharper metal edges than they were made for. Either way I swapped them out for quarter turn panel fasteners by DZUS. I picked these up from my friend Mcmaster Carr (part numbers 93442A413, 93442A212, 93442A311). I went with the plastic version of the clips because they?re quite a bit more tolerant of the varying gaps. Given my panel sits at a bit of an angle this is an unavoidable side effect of my setup.
[ED Note: pics to be added later]
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/XXX)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/XXX)
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Wiring the MAF
The new MAF has entirely different tables associated so I drove my car to the dyno with no MAF hooked (I still had my old IAT sensor plugged in and dangling) and re-wired it on the spot prior to tuning. Several folks confirmed that running this way defaults to speed density tune?
Note that the LS7 MAF wiring instructions (http://www.lingenfelter.com/sites/lingenfelter.managecontent.com/files/C62005-2006MAF.pdf) on Lingenfelter?s site are WRONG. You need to reverse the pins for the IAT so purple goes to the new MAFs D pin and tan goes to E (page 3 of the linked PDF). When you wire it the wrong way (per instructions), the IAT doesn?t work right and my tuner was seeing 280 deg F for a stone cold intake.
FYI the instruction PDF is saved below just in case something ever happens to Lingenfelters site.
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New Intake Results
Intake complete (you can just barely see the two horns peaking out on either side).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0625Medium.JPG)
Results mostly speak for themselves (this is before and after the intake):
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/frijolee_dyno2.JPG)
I should put in a disclaimer that this wasn?t purely an intake difference. A few other subtle things changed as well:
-Cam: Futral F13-114 LSA --> Futral F13-112 LSA, same duration and same lift as before
-Head gasket: stock GM --> Cometic 0.040? (adds a tick to compression ratio).
-Power steering removed
Weather conditions and everything else was pretty similar so it was a big improvement on net. I was grinning like an idiot all day. It certainly didn?t hurt that the tune went down the day before my 30th birthday.
This also proves that you don?t need a stupid huge cam to make good power. The F13 is only a 230-232 duration with around 0.59 lift on both sides. To be fair I keep hearing that Cam Motion (Futral?s grinder) is known for having great ?area under the curve? lobes.
So what did it cost? For the intake itself I bought a spare from RPM Motors (dyno shop) that they had lying around with no box. The intake and MAF together were $300 out the door. With hood pins, gas shocks, materials etc I'm into the overall setup ~$600. Add in $300 for the JTR radiator, another $100 for a fan, and suddenly I'm quite jealous of Samberg's FD setup where you've got a bolt in complete intake / rad setup for about a grand.
The car?s finally back up and driving great. Now if I could only figure out this stupid GTO alternator bleeding current issue?
-Joel
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LS7 MAF info
Habu found some good reference info on the LS7 MAF so I thought I?d attach it here.
I did some surfing and found PNs and vendors. I may go shadetree and hit the yards, the blade-style sensors are used in quite a few applications, plus I can snip the connector as well. Found on either LS1tech or HPTuners, can't remember:
RockAuto says ACDELCO Part # 2134222 (GM part #15865791) is the MAF is the same for all these vehicles:
CADILLAC SRX 2008
CADILLAC STS 2008
CHEVROLET COLORADO LS 2008
CHEVROLET COLORADO LT 2008
CHEVROLET COLORADO WT 2008
CHEVROLET CORVETTE 2008
CHEVROLET CORVETTE 427 LIMITED EDITION Z06 2008
CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06 2008
CHEVROLET HHR LS (2006 - 2008)
CHEVROLET HHR LS PANEL 2008
CHEVROLET HHR LT (2006 - 2008)
CHEVROLET HHR LT PANEL 2008
CHEVROLET MALIBU HYBRID 2008
CHEVROLET MALIBU LS 2008
CHEVROLET MALIBU LT 2008
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER 2008
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER LT 2008
GMC CANYON SL 2008
GMC CANYON SLE 2008
GMC CANYON SLT 2008
GMC CANYON WT 2008
GMC ENVOY SLE 2008
GMC ENVOY SLT 2008
HUMMER H3 2008
HUMMER H3 ALPHA 2008
HUMMER H3 X 2008
ISUZU ASCENDER S 2008
ISUZU I-370 LS 2008
PONTIAC G6 (2006 - 2008)
PONTIAC SOLSTICE (2007 - 2008)
PONTIAC SOLSTICE GXP (2007 - 2008)
SATURN AURA GREEN LINE (2007 - 2008)
SATURN AURA XE 2008
SATURN SKY (2007 - 2008)
SATURN SKY RED LINE (2007 - 2008)
Oddly enough, they list ACDELCO Part # 2133134 (GM part #12576410) as the MAF sensor for the following vehicles below. Perhaps the '06-'07 sensor used in the Z06 is the one that is slightly different afterall?
BUICK RAINIER CXL (2006 - 2007)
CADILLAC SRX 2007
CADILLAC STS (2007 - 2008)
CADILLAC STS V (2006 - 2008)
CADILLAC XLR V (2006 - 2008)
CHEVROLET COBALT 2005
CHEVROLET COBALT LS (2006 - 2008)
CHEVROLET COBALT LT (2006 - 2008)
CHEVROLET COBALT LTZ (2006 - 2007)
CHEVROLET COBALT SPORT 2008
CHEVROLET COBALT SS (2005 - 2007)
CHEVROLET COLORADO LS 2007
CHEVROLET COLORADO LT 2007
CHEVROLET COLORADO WT 2007
CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06 (2006 - 2007)
CHEVROLET HHR LS (2006 - 2008)
CHEVROLET HHR LS PANEL 2008
CHEVROLET HHR LT (2006 - 2008)
CHEVROLET HHR LT PANEL 2008
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER EXT LS 2006
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER EXT LT 2006
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER LS (2006 - 2007)
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER LT (2006 - 2007)
GMC CANYON SL 2007
GMC CANYON SLE 2007
GMC CANYON SLT 2007
GMC CANYON WT 2007
GMC ENVOY SLE (2006 - 2007)
GMC ENVOY SLT (2006 - 2007)
GMC ENVOY XL SLE 2006
GMC ENVOY XL SLT 2006
HUMMER H3 2007
HUMMER H3 X 2007
ISUZU ASCENDER 2006
ISUZU ASCENDER LS 2006
ISUZU ASCENDER S 2007
ISUZU I-370 LS 2007
PONTIAC G5 (2007 - 2008)
PONTIAC G5 GT (2007 - 2008)
PONTIAC G5 SE 2007
PONTIAC PURSUIT (2005 - 2006)
PONTIAC PURSUIT GT 2006
PONTIAC SOLSTICE (2006 - 2008)
PONTIAC SOLSTICE GXP (2007 - 2008)
SAAB 9-7X 4.2I (2006 - 2007)
SATURN ION-1 2005
SATURN ION-2 (2005 - 2007)
SATURN ION-3 (2005 - 2007)
SATURN SKY (2007 - 2008)
SATURN SKY RED LINE (2007 - 2008)
SATURN VUE GREEN LINE (2007 - 2008)
SATURN VUE XE 2008
I confirmed my the MAF I used is GM p/n 12576410... I can't tell you for sure what the difference is but I do know that the Lingenfelter pinout reversed the two pins of the IAT from what I actually had.
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Autocrossing w/ a De-powered Rack
its not that bad with 255 street tires.
i ran on 255 a032r's. it was tough, but doable in all but the tightest stuff.
What do you know? Josh was right. Autocross really isn't that bad w/ a de-powered rack. I ran 16 laps at autocross practice day yesterday with no issues at all. Parrallel parking still sucks but I think I can live with a depowered rack after all.
It was a pretty cool day. I can't even begin to tell you how much fun this is when the car runs right... Car got nothing but big thumbs up from the vette guys and a bunch of folks stopped by to check it out. It was my first time autocrossing and I did pretty OK.
68.803
67.022
66.815
64.827
66.019
65.845
64.341
64.397
63.124
63.572
63.304
63.355
62.807 (my FTD)
63.540
64.026
64.886
Last couple was me getting on it early, overdriving the car, and mostly getting loose by accident. :D It was supposed to rain so all of the above was on street tires.
For reference a fast lap seemed to be anything sub 61 seconds. The fastest gutted civics on Hoosiers seemed to run about a 60.2. Fastest time of day was a strung out Lotus with serious rubber that put down a 55.191. There was an unlimited vette that made a bunch of 55.4s. I?ve got a long way to go but I?m sure having fun out there.
A couple vids follow.
Love the flagman's commentary :yay:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2779479/ls1_v8_rx7_autocross_1/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2779479/ls1_v8_rx7_autocross_1/)
Bob Endicott was my passenger on this lap and had some nice things to say about the car at the end.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2780009/ls1_v8_rx7_autocross_2_w_bob_endicott/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2780009/ls1_v8_rx7_autocross_2_w_bob_endicott/)
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Swaybar Experimentation 1
At the Autocross above I spent a bunch of the day experimenting with was swaybars. I tried three setups:
1) Front: RB... Rear: nothing
2) Front: RB... Rear: RB
3) Front: RB... Rear: stock
I liked #3 the best by a fairly wide margin. It can still take throttle inputs in sweepers without getting twitchy but it definitely rotates better than no bar (at least for my driving style in my car).
It was a really good day and the car preformed well. The only thing I think I need to get squared away now is a bit of intermittent clutch feedback where it gets stuck on the floor. It happened just a couple times on the day. I'm guess it's blowby on the MC seal but I don't really know. It seems to get better when you give the car a rest so I only had it show up at the very end of one of the 16 runs. I don't think it's quite ready for full on road course duty yet... but it's getting pretty close.
Final note... If you're tracking a low slung FC I'd tend to suggest you'd want stiffer springs than I was running. I've been told by a Tein rep that I could go 8/6 pretty easy on the dampers that I have and that I could go all the way to a 9/7 or 10/8 setup if this was closer to a dedicated racecar.
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A Few Autocross Pics
I?m kinda lumping a lot of autocross stuff in here together. I often invite a couple friends to come along to hang and ride? At a recent day one of my buddies was a very decent photographer and got a couple good shots of my car. Props to Addison Weeks for the pics.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/img3161vo.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/img3179pz.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/img3356si.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/img3375s.jpg)
When one of these cars runs right it just puts a stupid grin on your face all day long.
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Won Best RX7 or Classic
Well I'm pretty damn stoked. My car just won best "Classic / RX-7" at Mazfest 2009.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0827edit.jpg)
It was an all Mazda event so cars were lumped into groups by model but all the older RXs, FBs, FCs, and FDs were lumped into a single group. I don't think I had the prettiest car there (especially given I was competing against FDs with perfect paint). However, I?m guessing I had more work into the car than most folks, I talked the judges ears off so they knew I did everything, and I even had a portfolio of pics (many of them from this build thread) that no one else did. Lots of cars with heavy bolt-on type mods. I guess I should be glad I won here. I'd never win one at SevenStock. Too much rotary bias.
Folks kept asking me to light it off for them which I was more than happy to do so. Best comment of the day... "Your idle makes my dick hard..." :laugh:
I was representing the Seven Not Stock T-shirt too.
Got a couple rides in a few fast cars... I ran into a friend I made two years ago at my very first track event who owns a wicked FD. I'd say it was the first really quick car I'd ever experienced on track. Ken was kind enough to give me another lift this year.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0824Medium.JPG)
Finally meet Ashley in person (LargeOrangeFont on here) and a few of his crew. He's just waiting for his rotary to let go so he can do the LSx swap, but I give him props for getting a bunch of drive time in with his car as is. If my ride along is any indication I think 3rd gear on his trans may force him into the swap before the motor does. He's got a really nice heel and toe so with a big motor and some real tires I suspect he'll be formidable on track...
Last ride of the day was a lift in on of the reformed All Star spec Miatas (now on steriods) that always make an appearance. They're running Cosworth motors, extreme weight reduction and were definitely some of the faster guys out there (having a pack of Skip Barber instructors on hand to drive them certainly doesn't hurt).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/IMGP0829Medium.JPG)
Damn good day all in all. I was pretty jealous that I wasn't running the track day this year but I'm really trying to make sure the car is running truly flawlessly before I get back out there. Besides autocross seems like a better format for running 10/10ths anyways.
A friend of mine had a pretty close call... Maybe the closest I've seen an FC get to a wall sliding. [Ed Note: Unfortunately the same friend actually did wreck his car at the same event a year later.]
YouTube - mazfest crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=athKfHf7Bkg&feature=channel_page)
-Joel
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Lingering Gremlins
Two persistent gremlins in my car seem are some strange behavior from an ?04 GTO alternator and a sometimes sticky clutch (symptoms seem like blowby at the MC seal but it's intermittent). I made some progress on the first and I?m certainly curious of folks have thoughts on the later?
Since I first installed this motor my alternator has had three bits of misbehavior:
1) It originally didn't charge when I first started the car (nothing hooked to the plug)...
2) After taking this in to get tested on a bench and playing with jumpers it suddenly charged (still nothing hooked to the plug) but it did so at a crazy high voltage --> 15.6 V as confirmed on 3 separate meters. It's been running hot ever since...
3) With the car off it bleeds ~0.20 amp through the alternator to ground. This is enough to kill a battery in a few days time.
After some internet searching I found this thread:
What is Happening...Alternator Voltage Too High? - The Forums at Chevy Talk (http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/205946/)
It's really aimed at old SBC/BBC style three wire GM alternators but the basic theory of operation is remarkably similar to the GTO wiring. As such, I stopped by Radio Shack on the way home and picked up the recommended 10 ohm, 10 watt resistor to use in place of an indicator lamp.
Both Pins A&B hooked up
Trying to mimic the factory connections I found that when I hook pin A up to battery, and B to battery through the resistor (after the car was running to simulate ignition on) I get 14.4 V charging. That's a big improvement over 15.6 V so now I'm getting hopeful and it definitely switched back and forth between 15.6 and 14.4 depending if B is hooked up or not. However, when I measure the current bleed with the car off (only pin A connected now because B would drop out with ignition off) I get a huge current draw of 4.54 amp!!! I pull pin A and it's back to 0.20 amp.
Only Pin A, no Pin B
This is kind of a subset of the above testing... Screaming high voltage and 4.5 amp draw w/ car off. Definitely not where I want to be.
Only Pin B hooked up
Just for giggles I tried Pin B only (using the resistor) but not Pin A. Result: 14.4 V charging w/ car on and 0.2 A draw with car off (pin B is supposed to go to ignition on so I removed it for the "off" test). The moral of the story is that Pin A may be labeled voltage reference but pin B sure seems to be the one that controls charging voltage (and yes I triple checked that I didn't reverse them). I seem to be in a position where I can solve the high voltage problem but not the current draw... I should also probably pick up a few various resistor values and see if that makes a difference. My battery had been run down so 14.4 V looked about perfect to me.
At this point I'm wondering if I damaged my alternator but running this hot for so long. Supposedly you can tell if one of the alternator diodes is out by checking for AC voltage (should be zero in a smooth running DC system). If a diode is out you may pick up flutter that will show itself as AC... That test turns up negative for me but I think the next step is to get it back on a bench for a post op diagnosis...
For reference here's the pin out for the connector (alternator side is the mirror of this):
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/AltConnector.GIF)
Here's the GTO wiring schematic:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/altschematicGTO.jpg)
For now I?ll have to live with the improvement made but I?m certainly not satisfied yet.
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Clutch Problems Becoming Frustrating
Slave cylinders seem to be the bane of my existence. I'm on my 5th slave in two an half years and they all seem to have hydraulics issues related to clutch dust jamming up the slave.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbsy0LjUvE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbsy0LjUvE)
I've tried bleeding like crazy and it just doesn't seem to help. (More discussion here (http://"http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-technical/41952-black-clutch-fluid-theory.html") and here (http://"http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-technical/56014-clutch-hydraulics-disaster-today.html")). [Ed note: links are broken but I?m leaving them in just in case we ever get the old data back]
I started with an LS1 clutch, then ran a three fingered McLeod Street Twin (note: after my initial positive review the engagement started to bug me, supposedly the new design is better), then went back to an LS6 clutch and Fidanza... All of them seem to have the same issues with clutch stick. The McLeod I could maybe blame on the three finger height discrepancies but it could just as easily have been hydraulics.
That said, I?m starting to look around for a non-organic clutch.
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There's a wee bit of mischief afoot on the car front... I've been picking up some cool pieces here and there.
This is how the my car sat at 11:00 at night when we finally finished wrenching on it. It's been a while since I had it this far apart, pretty much no driveline, suspension, brakes, etc.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1752Medium.jpg)
Many thanks to Robert (fc3s91), Ryan (electicalbox), Anthony (v8-rx7) and his father Ed for helping lend a hand. This was the first time I got to check out Anthony's car: nicely swapped TPI motor from an IROC-Z. It looks pretty awesome with my old seats mounted in there. ;) My Mandeville brakes somehow ended up on Robert's car too.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1744Medium.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1746Medium.JPG)
It's going to be a push to make SevenStock now... I'm studying for a Professional Engineering exam so my nights and weekends are limited these days.
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DIY Strut Tower Bar
I made my own strut tower bar. Figured that the plates that capture the top of the shock tower were nothing but added weight (towers and suspension bits are plenty stiff around the bolt pattern) so I did something simpler and just picked up the two inside bolts. I might triangulate to the firewall someday--if I?m honest, mostly because it looks so bad ass--but the major benefit seemed to be just tying the two sides together.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1601Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1603Medium.JPG)
Some good technical discussion on strut tower braces is here (http://"http://team99ers.2.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=702")... The author makes a pretty good argument why strut tower bars are a great idea on strut setups but not nearly as helpful with dual A-arms.
Materials: a single 6' stick of 1" OD 0.062 wall chromoly, some scrape metal and a hole saw for the base of the mount points. End result weighs 2.6 lbs. If I could weld aluminum I could have gone lighter yet as the major forces are in tension only.
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Steering Wheel Modification
Made a small mod that I'm pretty stoked on.
I'm a bit on the tall side and my knees always seemed to get into the steering wheel when I heel and toe. However, I'm also running a depowered steering rack and it makes it pretty hard to whip the wheel back and forth at low speed (IE autocross). That second part fairly effective rules out my desire to run an aftermarket steering wheel that comes with a little more dish to it (although the Nardi "Deep Corn" is one of the sexiest wheels of all time). I just couldn't bring myself to pay top dollar for a 370+mm aftermarket wheel when I may go back to PS some day. Plus I'd already switched out to a leather s5 wheel that's in really good condition so it's not like I really needed another upgrade.
Instead I opened up my wheel, took some careful measurements, and then cut the spokes and welded in 1 3/4" spacers (the most that my hands would still allow easy access to my turn signal.)
First attempt was just 3 straight extensions at the spokes but I found the wheel to be a bit more flexible than before so I also boxed in the top area with some lighter sheet metal to act as a shear plane. The whole extension part protrudes through the back of the plastic housing so it's pretty subtle if you're not looking for it.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1605Medium.jpg)
All the stock turn signal cancellation hardware and horn remains (although I got to extend the wire inside the assembly as well). It'll be cleaner yet if I can find a rubber accordion to hide the extension but for now I just wrapped it in a purple bandana I stole from a friend. (Thanks Jaime!)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1612Medium.jpg)
Other than a $4 stick of material, the mod was pretty much free. Leverage is much improved and I have plenty of room for knees to work the pedals like I want. No complaints from me.
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Time to start posting up about some of what I've been working on. Motor and intake have been solid so I've been going back to revisit clutch, suspension, brakes, and seating. Plus a few other odds and ends...
Clutch #4, Monster Stage 4:
I finally decided I?m through running organic clutch discs. A slave cylinder located inside the bellhousing just doesn?t seem happy with lots of clutch dust. I know some folks have had good success with the LS7 stuff, maybe the added clamping makes all the difference but I?m done trying.
After a lot of debate eyeballing the aluminum pressure plate options from Spec (to go with my existing aluminum fly) I finally broke down, went the other way and bought a Monster clutch. The overwhelmingly positive reviews on LS1Tech were just too much to ignore. After some long discussions with Monster's tech support I went for the stage 4, sintered iron version. It's supposed to shed heat really well and actually have better engagement than the stage 3 (at least once you're through with the break in period). I went for the 11" PP instead of the 12", the lightened chromoly fly, a new slave, and a speed bleeder.
This is the first clutch setup I've bought that comes with EVERYTHING. All hardware, alignment tool, even a new pilot bearing.
However, it was probably the most annoying clutch install I've ever done. Started off normally enough...
Lay out all the pieces and admire the hog-out work on the backside of the fly.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1754800x600.jpg)
Lube pilot bearing, install fly, torque ARPs (I kept the TTY hardware and pilot bearing that came with the clutch as spares, since my stuff was still perfect).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1759800x600.jpg)
Friction disk aligned with tool:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1760800x600.jpg)
Tighten pressure plate, re-verify alignment tool slips in and out easily, then torque bellhousing.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1761800x600.jpg)
I'm doing all this from below as I just let the engine roll backwards slightly on its mounts to make some extra space. (If you do this be sure to pull your intake manifold least you crush the map sensor against the firewall).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1769800x600.jpg)
Problem was, I just couldn't get the trans to go through both the splines of disk and pilot bearing. After fighting with this for about a half hour I start to question whether the disk was well aligned to the crankshaft. There was definitely some slop in the alignment tool so I go find my other one. Sure enough, not all plastic tools are created equal. There's about a 0.020" tip diameter difference and the other tools isn't slipping in. I had tried to center the disk via ensuring I was at the midpoint of the play up and down but it just wasn't enough.
Had to pull the bellhousing back off, loosen pressure plate, realign using my better tool (a spare input shaft from a t56 would really be the best tool if you could find one) and try again.
SON-OF-A-B%$@&!!!! It's aligned as good as I can get it and I still can't get the thing in. By this point I've got a buddy helping me (thanks Ryan!) and after about 15 minutes of no progress we pull the trans out of the way so I can take another look. My eyeball says the disk might be just a HAIR low so we try inserting the trans at an ever so slightly upward angle. It finally goes through both splines and pilot bearing.
BUT WAIT, there's more. The trans is almost in, but because it's now pointed at a slightly different angle than the bellhousing the trans bolts won't align and the pressure plate is grabbing so damn hard we just can get it to shift into place. It'd be sweet if we could just release the clutch for a moment but there's nothing good under the car to keep the trans from just pushing itself off the bellhousing. After another half hour of wiggling, we finally manage to get a single trans bolt threaded but doing so requires the trans be rotated from where it really wants to sit. We bleed the clutch and pray those few threads hold when Ryan steps on the clutch for the first time. Low and behold it works. We're able to shift the trans where it's supposed to be and all is well. Re-torque the remainder and we're good to go.
That might have been the hardest clutch job I've ever done... The upside is that I have high hopes for the clutch itself. Car's been up and driving for a couple weeks now. It's definitely got a bit of chatter if you slip it too long, but that's supposed to go away once it's broken in.
The pedal effort is barely harder than stock and the engagement feels decent. I'm really looking forward to seeing what this can do when it's ready to be flogged. Worst case I have the speed bleeder available so hopefully that'll make maintenance easier.
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Suspension:
I had a friend parting out an FC race car (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=857229&highlight=massive) so I picked up some really trick suspension bits.
-AWR needle bearing front control arms
-AWR spherical rear control arms w/ eccentric delete
-Adjustable toe links
-Spare AWR camber links (sold to a rotary buddy) and adjustable center link
-Spare t2 rear (which got sold to LargeOrangeFont)
-Spare Mazda comp front diff mount
-Came with a full set of bushings (DTSS etc)
-ARP wheel studs
-Speedway front swaybar (which will deserve it's own post as it's turned out to be harder than expected.)
Rear Suspension: Sphericals and Toe Links
Everything was pretty dirty and had some paint over spray so the first step was playing with the pressure washer (shoved axles in place before cleaning both old and new sub-assemblies to keep the wheel bearings clean and dry).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1762800x600.jpg)
Wanted it cleaner yet so I tore it all the way down and painted it with appliance enamel.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1782800x600.jpg)
On rebuild I found a few bushings where the sleeves were slightly loose so I used a bit of retaining compound to keep everything nice and snug.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1783800x600.jpg)
No more eccentrics (plates were a hair oversized and had to be shaved/painted)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1817800x600.jpg)
Toe links instead (with new washers instead the of the mismatched versions this came with). I beveled the washers at the sphericals to allow the maximum travel.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1814800x600.jpg)
Fully assembled and ready to rock. It's amazing how easily the arms can move now.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1818800x600.jpg)
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AWR Needle Bearing Control Arms (front)
AWR sells a of S4 control arms that have been machined and had steel sleeves installed to allow interfacing to needle bearings. The goal is to take as much friction out of the motion of the arm as possible thereby allowing the assembly to respond faster while making the suspension handle all the damping.
Note: AWR only does this with S4 arm that use replaceable ball joints. They?re slightly heavier because the ball joint housing is steel but the upside is better serviceability of parts.
Front arms were rebuilt and packed with grease... The machining that goes into these to get proper steel running surfaces on both sides is impressive. Crappy pic unfortunately.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1826800x600.jpg)
While installing these I found that my pivots on the chassis side weren't perfectly eccentric to each other. However, with a little dremel work these now swing up and down in glassy smooth like fashion as well. Driving impressions to follow.
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Spring Rate Change
While I was in there I upped my spring rates from 6/5 front rear (kg/mm) to an 8/6 split. It almost looked like I could use the former front springs in back but then I figured out I would get coil bind with the spring perch all the way up so I ordered both. Tein coilovers are easy because you don't have to mess with anything topside, it can all feed off from the bottom.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1793800x600.jpg)
After measuring a bit I cut my bumpstops down a bit too (shaft protected with multiple layers of tape to avoid scratches.)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1794800x600.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1795800x600.jpg)
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Driving Impressions
FYI: I've only really had the car driving for a couple weeks now, so long term impressions will have to wait but I wanted to post up some early thoughts on the new suspension bits. I suspect I?ll need an annual teardown and lube going forward (that already was the case with my driveshaft and camber links). The sphericals in use are all self lubricated so that'll just be a matter of life expectancy.
The best way to describe the difference in feel with the new suspension is to say that the car just feels really planted. It takes a lot more bump to upset the suspension now than it did before, which I assume means the suspension is tracking the surface of the road with a somewhat faster response rate than it had previously. Even better is the fact that there's really no additional noise or harshness to the setup. I'm not saying I'd do a solid mounted engine or diff, but the tires and shocks give you enough compliance that additional noise is simply a non-issue.
I just had the swaybar shortened and resplined so hopefully I'll be able to get that in pretty soon so I can get back out to the autocrosses. At the moment there no front swaybar on the car so I can't push it at all (that would just make for some crazy oversteer). I knew that the s4 control arm attachment was different than s5 but I didn't realize the mounts themselves are different widths. This just means I can't use the same attachment links I was running with my RB setup and the new spherical links wanted to bind at full travel due to how I had the RB relocated.
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Custom S5 Tow Hook
On the random front:
I built my own tow hook to use the factory s4 hook mount point on the frame rail but snake around stuff and out into the s5 mouth.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1786800x600.jpg)
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Power Coating Track Wheels
Mike (65imp) helped me out powder coating my track wheels... He's getting pretty damn good.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1802800x600.jpg)
I'm super stoked on the end result although frankly just about anything would have been an improvement vs. the chipped rattle can black (http://"http://www.v8rx7forum.com/567321-post248.html") these wheels came with.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1803Medium.jpg)
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Mandeville Big Brakes Version 2.0
I have a couple friends who?d been asking me about brake kits for a long time. I finally caved and built up the two spare kits I?d originally created. In the process I remade a few pieces that been I?d been wanting to tweak clearances on because I found that wheel bearings allow more motion of the disk relative to caliper than I?d expected (suddenly the reasons behind pad knockback become pretty obvious). Anyways, short version: there?s two more of my 4 wheel kits out there on the road. I made both my friends sign pretty gnarly waivers but they?re out there.
For my own car I decided to drop back down to a front kit only and run a prop valve. The front/rear bias of the other version was just about perfect (shifted toward the back by 0.5% vs. stock) but I figured I didn?t need the heat capacity out back and I?ve been watching un-sprung weight so I decided to keep it simple. I also decided to try out slightly more hardcore front rotors. I?m really hoping to start legitimately flogging the car on track and I wasn?t that excited about having to re-machine rotors every time I changed discs. That meant two piece rotors. Looked at Stoptech, Ferodo, and ended up going with Girodisc. Why Girodisc? Stoptech?s direct replacements seem to be having some issues with cracking, Ferodo?s turned out to be the most expensive I looked at, but Girodisc has the combination of a great rep from track day hounds with relatively inexpensive replacement rings.
Two piece rotors weight 16.5 lbs each compared to 20.5 lbs each for the single piece 350z fronts. I seem to recall that the stock rotors are about 10-11 lbs each so the added mass is not trivial.
Version 2.0 of the brakes wouldn?t be complete without adding a little bit of bling. Huge thanks to 65imp for helping me powder coat calipers. I got to spend some time helping fit internals in Mike?s carbon fiber doors. The SoCal crew tried to make sure the love gets around.
This ended up being a full day effort and a pain in the neck but it looks sweet (hot tip, plug the line opening while laying powder but pull it prior to placing parts in the oven avoids a piston blowing out under pressure once air on the backside heats up (not that we?d know anything about that). ;)
I did two full sets of calipers because I had them (spares are good right?) and I won't even tell you how long I spent standing at Mike's blasting cabinet...
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1996Medium.jpg)
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Once everything cooled down I rebuilt the calipers (see post below) and started on assembly.
Decided to make the mazda logo's pop out a big more so I shaved down the powercoat locally...
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2095Medium.jpg)
Assembly:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2097Medium.jpg)
Ready for install:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2101Medium.jpg)
Final version:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2111800x600.jpg)
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Speed Bleeders
Last tweak in this round of brakes was the addition of speedbleeders prior to install. I finally had a chance to try these out on a friend?s car (one of the other Mandeville BBK guys). Couldn?t BELIEVE how easy it made bleeding brakes and had to have them. Correct part numbers are SB8100 front, SB7100 rear, and SB3824 for my remote clutch line from Monster.
Note, if you're running a clutch extension you may need to verify the type of line you're using. I found mine used a fitting that disables functionality of the speed bleeder. With the bleeder loosened it just leaks around the nut portion of the line instead of being forced through the check valve.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2094Medium.jpg)
Maybe I can pot the surrounding area in JB weld and heat shrink? We?ll see?
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Rebuilding RX7 Brake Calipers
A side note that I did during the brakes job above:
Powder coating meant I needed to rebuild all the calipers (dust boots get coated etc). The rebuild is fairly straightforward. Front calipers use spring clips on the OD...
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1998Medium.jpg)
Rear clips are tucked in on a lip on the ID. Rears are definitely harder than the fronts. For the rears, I found you need a really long nose set of circ clip pliers to get the threaded internal piece out (there?s an o-ring on the backside).
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2001Medium.jpg)
Once the internals behind the piston are out you don?t need to undo anything else for the e-brake to get the pivoting shaft out. Just plug the spring and the whole assembly slides out straight through the rubber grommet.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2002Medium.jpg)
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Adjustable Proportioning Valve
Because I dropped down to stock rear brakes I also added an adjustable prop valve. I took a cue from 65imp and installed mine through the face of the rear bin right where the rear brake line tees into left and right. I can reach it from inside the care so tuning is easier but it's not really setup for on-the-fly adjustment. This is a Russell valve and if you decide to put it here make sure you go as high as you can as the toe link gets pretty close with suspension compressed...
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1791Medium.jpg)
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Track Day Brakes Feedback
I attended a high speed HPDE event (~150 mph on front straight) and finally had the track day I'd always wanted. No sign of fade, I was one of the fastest guys in my sessions, and generally had a blast. I can officially say that these brakes function very very well. I did however, still manage to get them hot enough to get the powdercoat sticky. They picked up some brake dust so they're not quite as pretty as before but I like them none-the-less.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2327Medium.jpg)
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A couple pics w/ track wheels per request... Props to Addison Weeks for the photography.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/frijolee_roval1.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/frijolee_roval2.jpg)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/frijolee_roval3.jpg)
The vette convertible was the only car to pass me on the entire day. I finally gave him the point by after a 6-7 lap duel. My favorite other competition remains Robert Baltazar (he of the rotary infatuation). I started a session behind him and had a couple points I thought I was on him, however I got black flagged because my passenger had a hand out the window, before we could settle it properly so he prefers we call this match a draw.
For all of the above I was on 225/45/17 v700 victoracers take offs. They were still stickier than my 255 street tires but it doesn't exactly give your car an intimidating presence from the back. Compare me to this GTR and you'll see what I mean.
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/frijolee_roval4.jpg)
So am I done screwing with brakes? Almost. I managed to get my hands on knuckles for all four corners with ABS provisions so I?m really hoping to do my own version of ABS someday. In the short run I want to try out the 929 MC/booster combination.
-Joel
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That?s pretty much it for the old thread. Hope the re-work and re-organizing was worthwhile. I'll work on fixing all the hot links up front later... I?m planning to head for SNS Davenport with the car on a trailer so I?m working on a few more things to show off. Some of it is done already and some is work in progress. Naturally, I?ll post up all the details when the event is done.
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Joel, that's absolutely freakin' awesome. Your info was some of the most valuable stuff on the old forum, and I'm greatly relieved to see it here. Thanks very much for your hard work on this.
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Thanks. It took a while to bring it all together. I've got 8 or 10 old post topics consolidated into the above in addition to reorganizing the build thread itself... There are a bunch of new pictures etc. Half the reason I built this car was to see if I could. Same principle applies for documenting the heck out of it.
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All hot links in the first post have been added. I fixed most of the links within the thread and made all the videos embedded as possible. If you find anything that not working let me know.
I'd say I have ~30 hours just into this edit and remix.
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:yay:
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSC_0445Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSC_0448Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSC_0441Medium.JPG)
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(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2805Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2804Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2808Medium.JPG)
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2810Medium.JPG)
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Wow, this is a great thread. Have you heard of these Project Mu pistons for the stock calipers?
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Think it'll fit? Hella flush here I come!
(http://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/sDSC_1181Medium.JPG)
Wow, this is a great thread. Have you heard of these Project Mu pistons for the stock calipers?
Thanks fella. No I hadn't so I went and looked them up. Looks like they make aluminum pistons as a direct replacement part. You could definitely drop a few ounces of unsprung weight but I think you'd have worse heat transfer. Too bad they don't make them out of Ti.
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wtf is going on here...
what fenders are you gonna run? wheels? tires? is it super secret? lol
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HAHAHA... man I've been leaking pics slowly for the last couple weeks wondering when folks would pick it up and I finally had to post a little more blatant shot.
The car is well into getting a serious widebody (one that's been off the market for quite a while ;) ). 295/30r18 rubber at all corners but I can jump into a 315 rear if I decide to later. Making the drive to SNS was the only reason I've been keeping it a bit under wraps. Unfortunately I may have to show up without paint but that's both because I'm being pretty careful about fitment and I want the car to be 100% mechanically sound. I had some issues with my fan controller I had to get sorted, I really wanted the new swaybar in, etc.
-Joel
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Please God let it not be a Mariah. ;)
Tri-point?
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What's wrong with Mariah?
You don't like it?
(http://www.mariahmotorsports.com/images/exterior/mode_six/m6r3.jpg)
OK, OK, I'm just not that evil. Yes, it's Tri-Point.
But the twist is that I didn't just buy the fenders. I tracked down and bought their original molds and then had the fenders made. :D 65imp, Brismo7, and I will be selling them as part of the company we're in process of launching. Carl Byck's car is a better preview shot...
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/miltstheman/RaceRx72.jpg)
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oooohhhh damn! That is stunning Joel! Glad to know you have the molds.
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I've been reading this thread a page at a time for like two weeks or something. Thanks for putting so much time into it, as I've enjoyed, and learned from it. Bad ass car. I'm going to school for my Mechanical Engineering degree, and I have a blown up turbo II that I'm planning a V8 swap on myself. Make sure to continue the updates!
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Awesome Joel. Awesome.
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only 295's? those fenders are damn huge- should be able to run 315's all around with room to spare. you have wheels for that or are you gonna get some made?
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Thanks fellas and props to any future M.E.s...
I went 295s all around for a couple reasons...
-It's only a hair larger than the stock diameter. Your next two step sizes in 18s are 315/30 and 335/30 both of which are significantly taller.
-295s fit well on an 18x10.5 wheel (OK it's not hella flush, sorry for letting you guys down.... :( )
-10.5 is the widest you can get most of the light weight one-piece stuff. The only exception I know about is the SSR Type F which goes to 18x11.0.
-Beyond that that you're into a three piece wheel. Everyone wants close to top dollar on Zilvia.net so I never saw anything that interesting and that left me shopping new...
-As a 3 pcs wheel CCWs become your next viable option. Only options are Classic or LM series because they don't have anything one piece in the right offset. (They have a few standard molds that they machine everything from.) I've seen this done too many times so I wanted to be different.
-Ability to rotate is a big bonus since tires get expense quick.
-Finally 295s are the widest you can get Advan AD08s which was really the tire I wanted to run.
For future reference my 0.02 is that 295/30 315/30 would probably be about ideal to fill up the fender wells but not push it. (18x10.5 and 18x11 SSRs?) My eyeball says a 315/30 335/30 could probably be made to work but it'd be quite a bit more work and you run the risk of the car sitting kind of high.
As it is, because the tires stick out further they also move further fore/aft when you turn lock to lock. I've had to move the factory wheel-well ducts forward about 3/4" and I'm working to make/mod fender linings because I have my accusump plumbing duck through there on the passenger side.
All the disclaimers aside, the first time I laid eyes on the 295's I had ordered I blurted out an honest to goodness "holy hell..." (<-- an inappropriate oxymoron if I've ever heard one, but still basically gets the point across).
I've save the exact wheel info for SNS. Anyone looking for a set of Volk RE30s 17x9+35s? I seem to be stacking up more tires than I need.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2814Medium.JPG)
Left to right that's
295/30r18 Advans
255/40r17 Potenzas w/ Volks
245/45r17 Mustang (keep saying I want to try drifting
245/45r17 Mustang spares
225/45r17 RA1s on Evo wheels (also FS, cardboard so I don't jack up the powder coating but you gotta dig that flat spot >:()
185/65r14 Honda (LOL)
Random spares, Roberts old 275/40r17s on the bottom that I might try drag racing with someday.
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What's wrong with Mariah?
You don't like it?
(http://www.mariahmotorsports.com/images/exterior/mode_six/m6r3.jpg)
Kind of looks like a leaner and taller Lotus Esprit... I think it looks good, but a little... disproportionate.
(http://www.diseno-art.com/images_2/Lotus_Esprit_rear.jpg)
OK, OK, I'm just not that evil. Yes, it's Tri-Point.
... (edited for brevity)
Carl Byck's car is a better preview shot...
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/miltstheman/RaceRx72.jpg)
^^ Now that is one good looking car. Looks like they stuffed 99+ spec FD combo lights in that front end. Not really liking how the IC piping is blocking the oil cooler ducts, but I guess you won't have that problem :)
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another option is 315/35/17 in back. yah its backwards stagger, but you save $100/tire. still dunno where to find a wheel wider than 10.5 tho
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Updates on the widebody?
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for sure.....
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It's on and painted. Took a big push to get it done for SevenStock (hence lack of updates). Pics of install and finished version this week...
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Joel, yours is easily my favorite FC. Can't wait for the pics....... :popcorn:
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OK, so I posted a bunch of teaser pics of the fender arch work prior to Seven Not Stock Davenport... In hidesight the only thing I should have done different is to get a set of wheels on the car before trying to take measurements for the cardboard template. That would have helped be quite a bit more precise.
Oh and if you weld your fenders do everything in 1/2" stitch welds at max. You really want to spread the heat around as it's easy have things warp and buckle on you. I was pretty careful and I still had one minor issue.
Now on to the pics!!!
Self etching primer
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2812Medium.JPG)
White rattle can primer and seam sealer (rust prevention)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2816Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2817Medium.JPG)
White gloss paint over the sealer
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2818Medium.JPG)
I shaved the insides of the fenders around the edge to help minimize the transition I would need to bondo...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2813Medium.JPG)
Prepping the fenders (sharpy marks where to remove paint, holes are because I used cleko clamps throughout the install):
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2821Medium.JPG)
Taking off paint is slow and messy... Angle grinders and flapper wheels are your friends.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2824Medium.JPG)
Paint off, everything wiped down with denautured alcohol for maximum adhesion.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2822Medium.JPG)
Glue applied (3M 8115 panel bond). You'll need a full 200ml. Even that is a bit close but I found I could just ration my usage as I went. The manual applicator gun works fine (see seam sealer pic) I used about 40 3/32" cleko clamps all from an army surplus guy on ebay.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2823Medium.JPG)
Real tires came in... Big and beefy that's for sure... Ain't my daugter gorgeous?
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/c2f1DSC_0495MediumCrop.jpg)
Checking offset and shaving lips for max squat.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2827Medium.JPG)
Spacers I wanted to run had a smaller OD than the wheel mounting surface (things like that will drive me nuts) so I had some new ones water jet cut.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2844Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2843Medium.JPG)
Long hair filler (AKA kittyhair) to really tie down the edges. This stuff is weird but it works great for filling gaps and holes.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2865Medium.JPG)
Starting to rough out the shape. Low spots are obvious but you want regular bondo for the actual transitions.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2870Medium.JPG)
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By comparison the front's are pretty easy.
Added two more clips besides the factory location to help define the line of the door.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2819Medium.JPG)
Checking full lock steering:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2831Medium.JPG)
Wide tires gave me more issues fore-aft because of the new arc than they did up and down. Here's a conflict with the OEM fender duct (shot straight from below). I'm also running without my washer fluid resevoir for the moment but otherwise it's fine.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2873Medium.JPG)
Add some good heat and it gets soft...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2876Medium.JPG)
Then you push it agains something flat (I used the edge of my workbench).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2878Medium.JPG)
One side down, one to go... No issues.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2875Medium.JPG)
Still need to make new fender linings but that's a project for another day...
Mazdaspeed lip? Cut and splice, glass and bondo... I was a lot of work but not really hard... No problem.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2845Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2846Medium.JPG)
There was the start of the proper bondo/smoothing, but this was what she looked like loaded up and getting ready for SNS 2010.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2881Medium.JPG)
Full pictures of that crazy 4,000 mile trip are here:
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?action=profile;u=50;area=aeva (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?action=profile;u=50;area=aeva)
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So now comes the fun part... smoothing it in. My only real suggestion here is to go slow and use the biggest sanding blocks you can find. I've screwed myself by trying to force stuff and it only results in low spots. If you sand too far, add more bondo and keep moving. I probably have 30 applications of bondo on here... (In my defense I'm a noob at body work and it was crazy hot in Cali so I usually only had about 2.5 minutes of working time for each application).
The sharpest curvature is rear fenders at the door seam. I found that using the backside of my rubber block gave a nice consistent radius that was about right.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0234Medium.JPG)
This is pretty much where I spend my evenings for about three solid weeks (yeah, I'm slow). Note the long sanding block.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0235Medium.JPG)
This was where I screwed up and should have had the lower edge pulled 1/4" forward. So instead I got to cut off the edge closest to the tire and reshape the whole lower portion. It's a lot of layers of bondo but its maxes out at about 3/16" thick. The trim detail took quite a while to get looking right.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0236Medium.JPG)
Setting up the "paint booth" with everything blended in
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0260Medium.JPG)
It's a family affair. (Wife and Dad)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0261Medium.JPG)
Mom with the kid. My EZ up wasn't big enough so I placed it diagonally to shield as much of the car against wind as I could.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0263Medium.JPG)
Water trap: plastic hose for better thermal conductivity, copper would be better but this still worked really well.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0267Medium.JPG)
Washed the car, then a denatured wipe down, then a high build primer. Note there's two schools of thought here. Some folks prefer gray or dull primers so you know you have enough base coat. I choose white as insurance just in case my basecoat turned out thin.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0264Medium.JPG)
Glazing putty / spot filler
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0265Medium.JPG)
Sppt filler sanded out. You can follow with more primer if you still have low areas (too low and it's back to bondo).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0270Medium.JPG)
Close up of the holes and scratches this step fills. It's easy to tell where you went after the fiberglass more aggressively.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0269Medium.JPG)
Shooting basecoat
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0271Medium.JPG)
Clear
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0275Medium.JPG)
Same basic process went down for the front fenders and lip except these were all painted off board.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0273Medium.JPG)
Problem with the new shiny bits is that suddenly my doors looked terrible. I couldn't help myself so I pulled all the hardware and painted those too. Door handle hardware you get to one bolt with the window up and one bolt with the window down. I probably took out around 20 door dings between both sides :punch:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0299Medium.JPG)
Sanded out the rough stuff at the bottom of the door.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0300Medium.JPG)
Strangely my doors don't match. The pass side was hard texture at the base while driver's side had rubberized stuff that had to be scrapped off. Furthermore the trim on passenger's used solely double stick tape, while driver's side had holes for clips I had to fill (epoxied patch panels on the back and then filled with bondo).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0301Medium.JPG)
And here's the Ronin crew at SevenStock...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0311Medium.JPG)
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Ed note: Bumped this down post so I could have more space up top.
Joel, yours is easily my favorite FC. Can't wait for the pics....... :popcorn:
Thanks Rich, your FD is damn high on my list too. Is the LS7 done?
Here's a few shots of the finished version that I took last night. Still need to color sand and polish.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0312Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0316Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0317Medium.JPG)
Check out those fender lines! :yay: :yay:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0319Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0321Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0322Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0323Medium.JPG)
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Added a bunch of install pics above.
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is that a JKL wing? did you make the mounts?
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Wing overall shape is from an OEM RE-Amemiya wing. It's one of the products pending from Ronin Speedworks.
Changes:
-Mounts have better curvature to match the back deck of the car.
-Mounts are ~2.5" taller than the RE original so it doens't interfer with your rear view.
-Greater range of adjustement relative to angle of attack
-We smoothed the shape of the wing it in a few places and we're using a stronger layup.
-Three attachment points per mount instead of two for better side to side rigidity.
More info coming
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Added pics of painting process above.
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One of your doors is S4, one is S5. :)
Thanks for the updates.
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did you water jet that front plate ? kinda interested if you have the design i can get it made or sell em ?
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Intake was a total one off inluding the aluminum shroud (there are hot links in the first post if you don't want to dig). Biggest problem is that MTI is now out of business so if you wanted to replicate the intake you'd have to find one used.
Given how much crap you have to move around (overflow, relays, hood latch, hood prop, hood shocks etc) it's not for most folks.
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Wing overall shape is from an OEM RE-Amemiya wing. It's one of the products pending from Ronin Speedworks.
Changes:
-Mounts have better curvature to match the back deck of the car.
-Mounts are ~2.5" taller than the RE original so it doens't interfer with your rear view.
-Greater range of adjustement relative to angle of attack
-We smoothed the shape of the wing it in a few places and we're using a stronger layup.
-Three attachment points per mount instead of two for better side to side rigidity.
More info coming
First article for the main wing is complete. Teaser pic but the RE wing would have split in half if I tried this (it delaminated from normal use on a fast car)...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2942Medium.JPG)
We'll have full info up on www.roninspeedworks.com (http://www.roninspeedworks.com). This and the FD fenders have been sucking up most of our R&D time but at least we're getting close.
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I would love to see the widebody with trim back on it. Of course asside from the doors that would be a custom job.
I assume no one really worries about it but couldn't you actually get a ticket for not having side marker lights anymore?
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We need some daytime shots of the car!
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Wing overall shape is from an OEM RE-Amemiya wing. It's one of the products pending from Ronin Speedworks.
Changes:
-Mounts have better curvature to match the back deck of the car.
-Mounts are ~2.5" taller than the RE original so it doens't interfer with your rear view.
-Greater range of adjustement relative to angle of attack
-We smoothed the shape of the wing it in a few places and we're using a stronger layup.
-Three attachment points per mount instead of two for better side to side rigidity.
More info coming
First article for the main wing is complete. Teaser pic but the RE wing would have split in half if I tried this (it delaminated from normal use on a fast car)...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2942Medium.JPG)
We'll have full info up on www.roninspeedworks.com (http://www.roninspeedworks.com). This and the FD fenders have been sucking up most of our R&D time but at least we're getting close.
No lie on the original RE wing. Total pos as far as construction. That is what we had on the FD and it did come apart. Nice job Joel and crew!
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929 Master Cylinder and Booster
Y'all know I like playing with brakes... We'll I finally have a setup that feels as good as it functions. Short of the engine itself the 929 MC/booster combo is possibly my favorite mod done to date. MUCH harder pedal with MUCH increased sensitivity at the same time.
-FC standard brakes: 7/8" master w/ single diaphragm 9" booster (seems to be two power valve options)
-FC s5 t2 brakes: 15/16" master w/ dual diaphragm 7" plus 8" booster
-FD brakes: 15/16" master w/ dual diaphragm 8" plus 8" booster
-929 brakes: 1" master w/ dual diaphragm 8" plus 9" booster
Moving stuff over:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2957Medium.JPG)
Direct bolt in, but make sure you hang onto your old clevis as the pedal arm width is different. Also the vacuum boost line is on the opposite side.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2958Medium.JPG)
Note the 929 has only two ports (one front and one rear) rather than two fronts and on rear like that which came with the FC. I've had this standing by for a while based on this thread on da club: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=869142 (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=869142)
However, I was never happy with running a T right next to the booster and I finally figured out a different solution (thanks to Anthony for spotting the key ingredient). First, I suggest you grab an extra banjo connector from the ABS assembly if you get this at a junkyard. Alternatively I got my spare banjo from a Miata. The hot ticket fastener you need is a DUAL banjo bolt with m10x1.0 thread. Slightly reroute the lines and you're in business. I'm using a pass through block but the setup is the same with an OEM prop valve.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2959Medium.JPG)
I'll warn you that the power difference is pretty high (the extra vacuum assist more than compensates for the increased bore so it takes some getting used to) but the ease of modulation w/o having to completely stand on it is a wonderful thing when you start driving in anger.
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looks great. So what kinda years of 929 is it from
nevermind i read your link to the club 91-96
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Yep 91-96, mine was from a car with ABS but I'm not 100% sure that matters or not... For less sensitive brakes I could see using a 929 booster with a 1 1/8" MC. I believe Clokker has done a great deal of work playing with even bigger bore MCs. He's all over the thread I posted above.
The other upside of this mod is that the hard brake pedal makes heal and toe shifting easier because it's a lot closer to the proper relationship of brake and gas pedals. Despite my best efforts my brakes were always too low vs. the gas before and I didn't want to lower the throttle to match least I give up throttle body butterfly actuation range.
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It's a great setup and one I have been using for quite awhile with a slight difference being that I use the FD booster mainly because I had them laying around so it was an easy experiment. Bob Beasley used this setup successfully until he went bigballer w/ pedals and dual masters. There is a cool fitting availale from Mazda that will prevent you from having to go with the "dualing banjo's " setup. It is a part from the later model 929 and works nicely. I modded my plumbing a little to fit the propotioning valve in near the master since I did not anticipate any need to adjust it after the initial install. This car probably wont ever see any track use in it's cushy street trim.
Unable to post pics right now for some reason but will try later.
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Thanks for this. I just scored a 929 Master/Booster combo from a local yard for $65. I think I'll add a Wilwood prop valve while I'm in there.
Steve
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There is a cool fitting availale from Mazda that will prevent you from having to go with the "dualing banjo's " setup. It is a part from the later model 929 and works nicely.
I was orginally looking for a single banjo with dual outputs but coundn't find one. If that's what you're talking about that'd be every bit as clean or even a bit nicer than what I did.
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There is a cool fitting availale from Mazda that will prevent you from having to go with the "dualing banjo's " setup. It is a part from the later model 929 and works nicely.
I was orginally looking for a single banjo with dual outputs but coundn't find one. If that's what you're talking about that'd be every bit as clean or even a bit nicer than what I did.
the pictures I have are too big to post but the fitting is from the lter style 929. I will try and email you a pic tomorrow from work.
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Frijolee, I am considering an over the rad air intake setup in my car and was wondering if you could give me a measurement. After you cut your hood brace out, do you know how much height you had available from the top of the core support to the bottom of the hood skin?
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Let me take a measurement for you. FYI My point of minimum clearance is back at the intake side T bolt clamp for the silicon intake coupler. I'd say I only have about an 1/8" at the clamp.
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Realized I never really captured the info on a few topics...
Fixed Back Seats
A comfy as my old Tenzo Rally seats were it always bugged me a bit that I had the extra weight of the reclining ability with a roll bar right behind me rendering all that useless.
When a friend asked if I'd ever consider selling them I jumped at the chance. We ened up working his stock seats into the deal so I’d have some factory rails to start from. After a bit of shopping around I picked up a set of lightly used Momo Laghi Evo seats (AKA Acropolis Evo).
They weigh in at about 17 lbs a seat IIRC. Driver side uses a modification of the stock rails. Passenger side is full custom. The framework for the mounting was 1 1/4" angle iron 1/8" thick. Side plates are 3/16" 6061-T6.
Stock rails:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1798Medium.JPG)
Welding Angle iron at correct lateral spacing:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1799Medium.JPG)
Adjusting seat position (lots of tweaking and shimming with wood prior to building side plates, pardon the crappy picture)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG1800Medium.jpg)
End result on both sides (passenger rail on the trans side is pretty weird looking because of the the slope of the floor so I should snap a pic at some point.)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2836Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2838Medium.JPG)
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nice work Joel. The p/s is a mondo pia fer sure!
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Speedway Swaybar
A little before going widebody I added a 1 1/4" hollow swaybar with splined ends. We've thought about this as a Ronin project but it's really too much work to make it an easy bolt in solution so I figured I'd post the info here instead.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2858Medium.JPG)
What's with the black spacer thing? We'll get to that in a second...
Picked up the bar and ends from an FC race car that was parting out locally. Strangely the bar as purchased was about 40" long and I needed 36" to let me turn the wheels at full lock (pretty sure the former owner couldn't do it). The upside is that Speedway Engineering turned out to be local to me and I got it cut down and resplined for not a lot of money.
36" length puts the end about an 1/8" from rubbing the wheel wells so it's tight and it meant I needed to trim the edges of my frame rails...
Before:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2175Medium.JPG)
After:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2180Medium.JPG)
Basic pieces (thanks to Mike for the powder coating assist to match my brakes.)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2832Medium.JPG)
The steel plates were my means of tying in an extra nut so I now have three swaybar mount holes. Stock hardware positions are still accessible plus I now have an extra hole further back for the new hardware spacing. McMaster supplied the bearings... http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/1146/=c7na70 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/1146/=c7na70) part number 3813T18
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2847Medium.JPG)
So that part about cutting down the bar? Well that meant my arms were now bent wrong and didn't land over the control arms correctly. rather than try to rebend I made little tower spacers out of 1/8" steel (already painted in the first picture). Shot glasses anyone?
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2835Medium.JPG)
Bar has ~1/4" clearance all the way across the bottom relative to hard parts. However the straight run meant I was rubbing my oil cooler lines by a hair. Built a couple little sacrificial wear parts out of a PVC coupler to be safe.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2859Medium.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2849Medium.JPG)
One more shot of the end result (there's also PVC as a spacer between arms and bearings on both sides to keep it centered so it can't slide side to side and rub.)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2860Medium.JPG)
The last thing I'll mention on fitment is that if you're running low and take a healty bump while close to lock you can bind up your steering rod on the lower surface. I was only able to do this (and barely at that) when really romping through a stoplight about to turn red but I ended up notching the bottom surface of each arm by about 1/4" to give me a touch more space. No pics but it was basically just carved out using a 2" diameter sanding drum to keep stress risers to a minimum.
Previously the best swaybar setup I'd tried was using an RB front bar with a stock rear bar (~20 lbs total). This weights ~6 lbs, that's the big upside. That said, their are probably easier ways to drop 10 lbs. For me the added bonus is that I set this up so the torsional spring rate of my setup is just a touch lower than the RB bar so I don't run a rear sway anymore either.
For reference
-stock FC swaybar (s5 na) is 0.95" diameter = 546 lbf/in differential compression side to side
-RB bar 1.13" diameter = 1074 lbf/in side to side
-speedway bar 1.25 OD, 1/8 wall = 966 lbf/in side to side (when used with a 7" lever arm).
End of story: the cornering balance is still right where I like it. Having played at a few autocrosses since I can say that it seems to work nicely.
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Nice setup Joel. Looks as (over)engineered as I'd expect. ;)
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Photoshop
Kinda of a random entry in this here monstrosity of a build thread but back when I went looking for wheels for the widebody setup I had a pretty hard time making up my mind on what to go for.
CCW classics are everywhere and still pretty expensive so I wanted something else. I needed a low offset 18x10.5 or wider, that looked good, was light weight (that probably meant 1 piece), and strong enough to take some abuse.
My final two wheels came down to the SSR Type F and the Weds Sport TC105N... RPF1's were right up there but again, they're everywhere and I wanted somthnig a little more unique. When debating the final two, the SSR's cost a hair more but were available in a few colors. They also had the upside you could get an 18x11 in addition to an 18x10.5. That would work well if I wanted to run a 295 315 stagger (to be fair an 11.5 CCW or Kodiak would be the best). Weds were lighter, had a bit closer offset, and a bit cheaper. At the end of the day I decided I really needed to see what they'd look like so I broke out photoshop and kludged my what through some chopping.
Actual car on Volk RE30's (pardon the momentarily missing trim). This was before rim striping them red.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG4567Medium.JPG)
Chop of SSR type F
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG4567ssrMedium.jpg)
Chop of Wed TC105N
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/jCIMG4567tc105nMedium.jpg)
It actually wasn't terrible to find pictures in roughly the same orienation and then stretch them to look close.
What do you think did I make a good call?
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tempDSC_0316Medium.JPG)
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Those look great, that offset looks perfect with the widebody :D
Just curious, if you were concerned with weight why'd you go with 18's instead of 17's?
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Tire choices effectively rulled out 17s...
Tires wider than 275s in 17s are a fairly barren wasteland particularly in the 285 to 315 range I really wanted to run. My quicky tire rack search just to get a feel for things turned up:
0 options 285/35r17
3 options 295/35r17 (25.1 diameter, Kuhmo Esta XS plus a couple of hoosiers)
0 options 315/30r17
12 options 315/35r17 (25.7" diameter would be fine for the rear)
0 options 335/30r17
7 options 335/35r17 (26.2" diameter is getting pretty dang tall)
Compare that to 18s and the widths/diameters are better.
23 options 285/30r18 (24.8" diameter)
16 options 295/30r18 (25.0" diameter)
10 options 315/30r18 (25.5" diameter)
10 options 335/30r18 (25.9" diameter)
Yes you could do a 295/35 and 315/35 split in 17s for a race car on hoosiers but mine is a street car and constraining myself to only one tire wasn't cutting it for me. If weight was of the utmost a better call might be to run 18" fronts and 17" rear
For what it's worth an 18x10.5 tc105n weighs 18.3 lbs. The 18x10.5 enkei RPF1s weigh 19.7 lbs so at the end of the day I think I did pretty well all around.
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Yeah I figured you'd put a lot of thought into it which is why I was curious. I guess the car manufacturers that make sports cars with wide tires all favor 18's or larger.
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hows the body work holding out? no cracking filler or anything? im looking at blending my hood scoop in the same way
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No issues what so ever with the body work thus far. Basic process
-Heavy sanding of base metal (40 grit)
-Taper fiberglass transitions
-Clean w/ denatured alcohol (both sides)
-Glue down with 3M 8115 panel bond (took a full 200ml tube for both sides)
-Kitty hair filler to overlap edges
-Smooth all that with traditional filler
Talked with a few folks before I did this so I'm hopefully it'll live a long happy life. I've scared some folks with how hard I can pull on the fenders w/o drama. Probably need to stop doing that now that's it's painted. ;)
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sweet any updates?
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It's just living life as a happy hardcore daily driver.
I built some plugs for the wing mounts so it doesn't live with a wing on the street.
Getting ready to take it down for the diff swap and thinking about upping the cooling capabilities to give it a little more margin over the air conditioning I'm running daily.
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Need to see a detailed write up of the 8.8 Exploder rear install.
Andrew
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Finally getting ready for another round of mods... Been taking a bit to get the Jeep ready for daily driver duty while the RX7 is down. There have been a rash of cat thefts around L.A. so I built a pretty stout skid plate to keep that (and my undercarriage) intact.
Plan for this time:
-Upgrade radiator and fan to something a bit heavier duty for track use
-Add an expansion tank for easier bleeding
-Install Ronin 8.8 kit and torsen style diff
-Swap over to Ronin engine and trans mounts
-Redo exhaust to work with the Ronin bits
-Rebuild spare front hubs (hubs on it now had a hard life before I ever got them)
-Swap back to an F-body alternator (no more GTO pissing current crap)
-Ronin vented hood
Should be getting started in the next couple of weeks. The UPS man has been busy around my neighborhood as I got all the pieces together.
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Read this thread start to finish over 2 days. You've done a spectacular amount of work to this car, and as a result it looks absolutely fabulous. After reading everything done here, I don't think I will have any qualms over purchasing the Ronin hardware once I am in gear to do my LSx swap.
Again, amazing job on this build.
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Thanks.
I can't sing the praises of this swap highly enough. Yet as much fun as the car has been, I'm even more stoked on the interesting people and places, that this project has introduced me to.
These days, Ronin is a big part of that. It does make it harder to get my own things done, but it's so damn cool to have people stoked on what you're doing. Case in point, we just shipped a wide body to Japan. The fact that a gent over there wanted some "made in America" parts for his vehicle was awesome. It's like the inverse mirror image of our JDM craze here... Too much fun.
Good luck on your project! Let us know if Ronin can help.
Joel
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Oh, I think Ronin will plenty help with my project. I'm gonna need mounts afterall :P
Besides, you guys are in So Cal, thats a short hop from Phoenix.
I am getting more stoked to get this project underway.
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Hey Joel, I think you should take some good pictures of your car soon. It doesnt seem like you have taken much since the paint/body/wheels.
I know your busy tho. Nice car :)
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To be honest I haven't be taking pictues because I haven't done much lately. We're less than a month away from a second baby so between that, an intense period at work, and building parts for Ronin in the evenings I really haven't had the time. These days my car's mostly just a daily driver. (Though I did have a fun run-in with a viper this morning).
I've got all my parts for the work I indicated above but nothings started yet. Soon. Just don't quite know when.
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i just finished reading this thread and it is truely an inspiration! thank you!
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My motor needs to come out for some of the changes above. I'm toying with the idea of mo' power. Goals: keep it happy on 91 octane. Let it live on the street but track it occasionally. Minimize effort and cost (lets say 7k budget for the sake of argument).
Possible routes:
-440 stroker... Probably from ERL. Could go 454 too but the last bit is pure stroke and I'd like to let this spin. Let's me re-use the most stuff. Roughly limited to about 600 whp. I already have a 243/252 cam sitting on the shelf that would be near perfect. Gets easy to blow the budget if I do matched heads, a new intake manifold, and step up a size on headers (actually 7k might be low for any of these routes given fuel and supporting mods).
-Whipple twin screw blower. I love the efficiency of the twin screw design. I love the flexibilty of the flat torque curve. They have kits close enough to let me keep most of my intake tract. Would need to bulge my hood but that's do-able particularly since I'm switching over to a Ronin cowl hood so it'd be easier to glass in. Heat might be an issue. Might want to add forged pistons/rods so I could control compression ratio. Traction control would like be in my future. Note: I'm not particularly interested in centrifigal blowers. I'd do a turbo first.
-Smaller than you nutters run single turbo with the goal of the broadest torque curve possible. Not sure what this does to driveability on track (didn't like that with some past turbo cars). Do-able but it just sounds like A LOT of work since it'd kill me not to build headers for it. Probably screws up my AC. Again might need to do some bottom end work. I'm guessing either of the FI routes will offer greater power than the stroker, but in either case heat might be an issue and I like the simplicity of NA.
Bonus route: screw all of the above and blow the budget on tires, track days, ABS and Traction control, maybe a dry sump. Add the above later.
Thoughts from the forum? I really debated not saying anything and just pulling the trigger on the stroker but decided it was too important to get opinions from the car guys I trust.
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Twin screw (although a turbo would also potentially give up nothing to this IMO).
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Honestly, stroker is probably the best for a track car.
A Whipple would be better than a turbo if you want to keep A/C. No A2W in front of the radiator to fight with on cooling, and you could keep the boost pretty low. Your overall heat rejection shouldn't be dramatically different from an N/A engine at the same horsepower either. Instant torque is REALLY fun to drive too. They are hard on drivetrain components and will want to make you get spinny pretty easily.
If you want to go all "pure track" and dump A/C and get silly up front you can certainly fit all the cooling and such that a turbo needs, but I just don't see that happening with A/C. If I wanted to build a track car with a turbo V8, I'd cut the frame rails forward of the subframe and get tubular up there. Lots more room for goodies then. Well within your capabilities too, but mondo work.
Stroker = keep all your current ancillary systems. The other options will nickel and dime you to death there, particularly in track worthy cooling of systems.
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Joel,
Quit pu$$y-footing around and twincharge it. Sheesh, we need to get more engineering up in Heeeaaaar! :gruffy:
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The "sleeved" cubic inch route is what I'd like to do...same weight and complexity. I'm sure there would be other bugs to work out, but certainly less than if you put pressure to it. Most of you guys are alot smarter with this stuff than I am though....my car has been down for 2 weeks doing a shift knob change!
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Honestly, stroker is probably the best for a track car.
A Whipple would be better than a turbo if you want to keep A/C. No A2W in front of the radiator to fight with on cooling, and you could keep the boost pretty low. Your overall heat rejection shouldn't be dramatically different from an N/A engine at the same horsepower either. Instant torque is REALLY fun to drive too. They are hard on drivetrain components and will want to make you get spinny pretty easily.
If you want to go all "pure track" and dump A/C and get silly up front you can certainly fit all the cooling and such that a turbo needs, but I just don't see that happening with A/C. If I wanted to build a track car with a turbo V8, I'd cut the frame rails forward of the subframe and get tubular up there. Lots more room for goodies then. Well within your capabilities too, but mondo work.
Stroker = keep all your current ancillary systems. The other options will nickel and dime you to death there, particularly in track worthy cooling of systems.
Yeah, then he could always add a power adder later if he wanted more power.
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So it sounds like if I want to keep AC, turbo is likely off the table.
With the whipple, the temptation is going to be to tear into the bottom end anyways to add some forged components. I'm guessing that's 2k with a clean up hone and new bearings (somebody spot check me if I'm off). Hood bulging sounds a bit painful.
Found an interesting local resource who seems to have quite a few folks like his work with Darton MID sleeves. (Mike, who'd you use again?)
http://www.raceenginedevelopment.com/pages/694927/index.htm (http://www.raceenginedevelopment.com/pages/694927/index.htm)
Actually just gave him a call. For reference he recommended a 434, 4.155" bore (leaves .030 for cleanup / future hone if something goes wrong) 4" stroke. Did say that my heads will hold me back.
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Steve at RED is the go to guy on sleeved stuff. Everyone I spoke to about it speaks very highly of him if it comes to a sleeved block.
I think the guy to talk to is whoever you decide to build the engine for you, whether it is ERL, Koenig, or the norcal armada's go to guy Dave. They can tell you how much for each step of the way. You get to decide if you keep some of your stuff, or go full longblock from them.
I kinda like the big inches thing myself, then you can chose to build more as time goes on.
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I vote for bigger cubes. I am really liking the simplicity of an NA setup, especially since it gets driven alot. It will also allow you to use most parts you already have.
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Y'all seem to like the thought of having a few more inches than the next guy huh? :halo:
Yeah, me too... :yay:
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Lol who doesnt, isnt that what its all about?
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Figured it was time to light a fire under my ass and get moving. I had debated not posting anything until I was done this time because it would be fun to surprise folks with a *hopefully* healthy dyno chart, but… posting regularly is a motivator for me and I enjoy following along on some other folks build threads so I figured why not.
If you read the above you know I’d had been debating heavily what, if anything, I should do with my car. Hanging out with 65imp too much is dangerous because you start to get all kinds of bad ideas. I was really eyeballing Whipples seriously for a while there but in the end, I’m glad I didn’t. Although the Gen5 Camaro piece is mighty close I finally got to look at a few up close at the LS Series Shootout . As best I can eyeball they’re about 4” taller than a stock LS3 manifold.
Whipple (I believe it’s the 2.9L kit)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Gen5CamaroWhippleCustom.jpg)
Stock
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Gen5CamaroLS3ManiCustom.jpg)
Definitely more than enough to force you to do some crazy things with the hood. Plus I keep hearing how hard they are to keep cool on the track and I do enjoy running around out there every now and then.
Since my family and I moved mid April my RX-7 has just been sitting. The Volvo fan blade decided to shear off at the hub and I didn’t want to buy a new one since I was planning on upgrading anyways. Since then almost all my free time has been going into setting up the new place, throwing myself into a new job, hanging with my girls, and keeping Ronin moving forward.
There at least has been a little progress. The car’s up on jackstands and the teardown is underway. In the meantime, I always wanted to post a few pictures like this… Any unknowns in my pile? :-)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0537Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0538Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0539Custom.JPG)
Other than my wiring being done this is going to be a fairly comprehensive build… I’m just about starting over with my chassis.
-Joel
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that's a lot of upgrade parts...good luck!
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Thanks Robert... You know something about stacks of parts yourself.
Coffee Table
I’ve been trying to get the new garage set up for maximum functionality. I’ve upgraded a few bigger tools, set up industrial shelving and reorganized a few times. One thing I just couldn’t seem to find a home for… I had held onto my blown engine block from my original build (complete with holes in both sides) because I’ve been threatening to turn it into furniture forever.
Then I stumbled across a nice piece of tempered beveled glass at a garage sale (technically it already had a base but it was this strange Greco Roman looking thing). Picked that up for $30. Since I was tripping over the block in the garage I decided to fast track the project and make it actually happen.
Since the glass was a large rectangle and since I still had the blown cam and crank as well, I decided to try something a bit like an exploded engine view with the heads shifted over and cam/crank flipped around and hanging out the front. Then I added in a spare set of 98 heads (just about worth nothing). I figure it weighs a little north of 300 lbs all told.
I’ve seen quite a few engine block coffee tables but none in this configuration. I spent quite a bit of time cleaning and then clear coated all the bits prior to assembly so hopefully it’ll stay nice for a long time.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0627Custom.JPG)
I dig the fact you see the one blackened journal and the windows in both sides of the block.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0623Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0624Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0625Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0626Custom.JPG)
Glass is padded with some clear tubing along the edge of the heads and the whole thing is bolted to a welded frame I scratch built. The ends hang over so two dudes can carry it, a la “Ark of the Covenant” style.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0628Custom.JPG)
Yes, it’s in the living room and yes my wife loves me. :D
-Joel
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That sir, is freaking awesome. I tried to get my wife to let me make one of those, no go. No go on using a blower housing from a Top Fuel car as a lamp either. :D
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At the very least, it's a conversation piece. ;)
On the wife front... we talked it out and I got the thumbs up with the conditions that it A) not be rusty and B) it not stink of fuel and/or oil. Ironically, some of the biggest kudos have been from my wife's friends who are into interior design. I kinda knew the car buds would be into but the variety of positive reactions from the ladies have surprised me.
Stay classy San Diego.
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THAT IS AWESOME. I like the design changes to the standard ones you see. Solid work. Ark of the covenant made me lol.
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That's sooo cool man!
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I love the idea of the offset heads and crank, would of never thought of doing that.
My gf aswell wants me to do this... I'm waiting for a cool motor to make one out of. I may be scoring a dinan built BMW V10 to do, we'll see.
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At the very least, it's a conversation piece. ;)
On the wife front... we talked it out and I got the thumbs up with the conditions that it A) not be rusty and B) it not stink of fuel and/or oil. Ironically, some of the biggest kudos have been from my wife's friends who are into interior design. I kinda new the car buds would be into but the variety of positive reactions from the ladies have surprised me.
Stay classy San Diego.
Take that, wife!
That sucker has to be heavy. Well, compared to a normal table at least.
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Hopefully you dont mind, I shared a picture of your coffee table on facebook and it appears to become an instant hit :cheers:
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Nice sticky info::great job Joel :cheers:
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Well, despite my momentary crisis of faith…
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=14057.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=14057.0)
I did decide that the best possible thing I could would be to finish my car and to fall back in love with it. I already have a big motor sitting on a stand waiting for a home and so I said screw it, I’m putting it together. If I build a tube chassis bug eye sprite someday at least I’ll have a fast car to play with while I’m building that (figure it’d only take a decade or so).
In the meantime, I’m overdue for some progress pictures of what I’ve been working on.
Radiator / Fan v2.0: Road Race
I’m still a big “fan” (pun intended) of the JTR radiator kit I’m replacing. It was perfect for a street car and should hold up great under track duty with a stock ls1 I still recommend it. On track with heads and cam it was fine but seemed to be pretty close to the limit. With a vented hood (ahem RONIN) it would probably be OK, but it became a lot more marginal after I added AC. Something about my condenser being in front was just enough that the coolant system couldn’t quite keep up and I’d end up blowing the heater to bring it back in line any time I was driving kinda hard.
I was chatting about this with Ash (LargeOrangeFont) a while back and we decided to mirror parts for most of a new build. We picked the pieces more than a year ago which tells you how much wrenching I’ve not been getting done.
Anyways, here’s what the new setup looks like:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0642Custom.JPG)
Parts:
-Howe 34329-RNF Note: Howe’s own literature claims this is 28 1/4 wide. http://www.howeracing.com/t-RadiatorsDouble-Table.aspx (http://www.howeracing.com/t-RadiatorsDouble-Table.aspx)
http://www.howeracing.com/Images/DoublePassDiagram.gif (http://www.howeracing.com/Images/DoublePassDiagram.gif)
However, our contact at Howe said that it would only be 28 1/4" if there was an oil cooler in there (which there isn’t in ours), therefore this radiator is actually 27 1/4”.
-Spal 30102052
http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=30102052 (http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=30102052)
The trick detail about this fan is not only is it high flow and a pretty good match the radiator dimensionally, but it also uses the rubber flapper gates to minimize resistance to flow at speed.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0641Custom.JPG)
Ash did a super trick lay down setup that I love (his car, not mine, random pic for reference)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a386/largeorangefont/IMG_2164.jpg)
However, I’d already done my own over the radiator intake that seemed to work very very well so I opted to not. Staying upright will also my keeping my AC condenser a little easier.
Mounting is custom. I picked up a good rivet nut tool a while back and it’s now probably one of my favorite tools. I just carved come custom top and bottom caps out of aluminum square tubing to land where I wanted. I’m using riv nuts to support the fan.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0631Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0630Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0639Custom.JPG)
For isolators I’m using McMaster part number 9225K64. The load rating on these might be a little light for long term service (15 lbs each in shear) but it was close enough to try. I can step up to a level harder if needed, the only downside is that those isolators only come in orange.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0635Custom.JPG)
Mounting took a little figuring out as I wanted to be able to drop this in vertically without relying on the big wrap around tow hood feature the JTR’s had. If you check out the pics above you’ll see the slots I carved in the side mounts so I could drop this in like I wanted. The lower isolators fit such that one side uses a factory mounting hole. The other is a riv nut.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0637Custom.JPG)
Only other changes were upsizing the fill point to use ½” heater hose and the addition of a drain plug (also ½”, although in this case it uses an ORB-8 plug)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0633Custom.JPG)
Here's what it'll look like in the car (final fit check prior to touching up paint as this took a little more trimming around the end tanks vs. my prior setup)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0739Custom.JPG)
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Very cool. Quality work as always Joel.
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Apologies that this thread is going to skip around a little bit. I’m doing a bunch at once so I’ve been getting after it in the order I have access to things not necessarily in the most logical order from a sequence and flow of reading standpoint. For instance, the radiator was built before I even decided to sell my engine and do the stroker. This is going to be pretty much an all new swap based on the same chassis, as other than interior, accusump, and some of the wiring this is a 100% redo.
Anyways, quick shot saying goodbye to the old engine. Served me extremely well and it went to a great home (along with my old hood!)…
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/byeengine3.jpg)
Time to meet the new girl. It’s an MTI “Z07” motor. The same engine setup in a Corvette won the One Lap of America a few years back. This one was just fully freshened by Erik Koenig at HKE. Prior owner was kind enough to even send me the receipt.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0016Custom.JPG)
Basic specs:
Block GM LS2 Darton Dry Sleeve
Lunati 4340 Forged Crankshaft (4.00 stroke)
Lunati Billet Connecting Rods
Jesel 1.7 Shaft Mounted Roller Rocker Arms
MTI Stage 3 Hand Ported 243 Cylinder Heads
Wiseco K395X130 forged pistons (11.25:1 compression, 4.130 bore)
Custom Patrick G camshaft (235/239 .602 / .604” / 113 LSA +2)
GM LS9 timing chain
Manton Custom Pushrods - 11/32nds Intake and Exhaust
Comp R hydraulic lifters
PRC .650 dual valve springs
Melling HV oil pump
ARP everything
It started life as a 427 ci, but given a 0.005 clean up pass I suppose that makes 429 now. The cam is pretty mellow for an engine this big and I was really tempted to swap in a 243/252 0.595/0.595 I still have sitting on the shelf. That said, the engine is already together and was built up by one of the premier LS engine guys in the country so I decided I’m not going to get all jacked about the peak hp number and instead do the grown up thing and see what this’ll do with the broadest torque curve possible.
Couple shots peaking at the inside:
Lunati Rods
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0884Custom.JPG)
Some very tidy sleeve clearancing for the stroker.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0885Custom.JPG)
Jesel’s are meaty. I’ll be watching for value control issues given the weight but I’m kind of excited to try roller rockers.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0654Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0649Custom.JPG)
Lots more to come…
-Joel
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Oil pan baffle – Improved Racing, trapdoor design
Seeing as my first LS1 is now a nice coffee table from an oiling problem, I’m of doing all I can on the oiling front for this motor. I really have to give it up for Michael Ihns and Improved Racing. I had one of the version 1.0 pans and he one’s of the folks I really respect. Heck, we even threw a link for Improved Racing pro-bono on www.roninspeedworks.com (http://www.roninspeedworks.com) just because we like the guys.
Trapdoor design is sweet.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0887Custom.JPG)
Out with the old:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0886Custom.JPG)
As usual, fit of the baffle is just about perfect.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0888Custom.JPG)
Figured I’d give a little brand recognition for Improved as well.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0891Custom.JPG)
This is one mod that belongs in any wet sump LS engine that sees track time (well, this and an accusump). If you have a dry sump, then my hat’s off to you. However I think I’d have a hard time going that way and keeping my AC.
Unfortunately, I did discover a stripped out oil pan bolt when changing the baffle. I could have just upped the bolt one size, but I’d still know and feel like I cheated. Instead did a double stacked helicoil for maximum thread engagement. I’m not cutting corners on an engine this nice. Rigged my shop vac to be careful about the chips.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0012Custom.JPG)
For whatever reason, I just love working on engines upside down.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0892Custom.JPG)
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Nice extension cord reel Joel :)
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Nice extension cord reel Joel :)
The garage doesn't have a lot of space so you do what you gotta do... It'll be a lot more open when all the misc parts are back in the car where they belong. The engine hoist is really in the way. I was glad to see that you were getting in some wrench time as well. I had Friday off and the fam is out of town so this is going to be a pretty solid three day weekend o' project work for me.
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Engine Bay Prep
I wanted to give myself a little more clearance around a few parts so this time I trimmed the firewall lip and the pinch welds of the subframe at both sides.
Big hole, getting ready to make a mess
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0660Custom.JPG)
I did this with the dash in the car and didn’t set the interior on fire. Anyways that’s the reason why I used a metric ton of 1/4 inch tack welds.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0663Custom.JPG)
Gained about 3/4 of an inch at the subframe. Should help with headers going in and out.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0666Custom.JPG)
Firewall needed to be a might deeper in one spot. I blew a hole in it trying to weld the sheet immediately adjacent to the tar behind it so I aborted and used kitty hair body for that depression with some standard filler smoothing over the top.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0705Custom.JPG)
I pulled the grill at the base of the windshield and the back of the seam will get some seam sealer to be sure it doesn’t rust where I burned off the paint.
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Hey Joel,
Looks great !
A question...In you cooling post above you mention AC. Unless I missed it there is no prior mention in this thread. Is there any info you can share ? Particularly wiring for AC demand on the FC, but anything else would be great too.
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Looks like I missed one. I took some pictures and had a write up going at one point before the job switch but it looks like I never posted it. Let me see if can track that down. Actually my new radiator's larger end tanks are going to force me to redo the condensor mounting so I have a little work to do on the AC system regardless. I'm going to get the car back up and running and then put the AC back on.
-Joel
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A/C 1.0 Placeholder
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Fuel System 2.0
The details of this round of the project have been in work for a while. Tribal knowledge around here seemed to say that a good size stroker motor could run into trouble with inadequate sizing of the fuel lines. I didn't want to risk that and I wanted to plumb a system I could be proud of. I did quite a bit of reading before I settled on a -8 feed and -6 return.
The best fuel system design thread I’m aware of is here:
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=3414.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=3414.0)
A big thank you to anyone who helped me with my myriad of questions in the above.
A few handy links (also from the fuel thread)… Line sizing goals/logic:
http://www.lmengines.com/fuel_lines (http://www.lmengines.com/fuel_lines)
A nice line sizing calculator is available here:
http://www.lmengines.com/fuel_lines_calc (http://www.lmengines.com/fuel_lines_calc)
Between the above and the Aeromotive example systems (Mine is based on the 700 hp NA version):
http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/09Aeromotive_EFI_PowerPlanner.pdf (http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/09Aeromotive_EFI_PowerPlanner.pdf)
I decided to run -8 feed through two rails in series (pretend it’s an inline 8 cylinder), then to my FPR, and then a -6 return. On the return side I decided that a bit of pressure drop did matter I don’t care what the pressure is in that line so long as it’s flowing OK and not cavitating. Provided I point the in-tank outlet away from the pickup, I should be fine. Staggering the line sizes also makes it easier to remember which is which. The Fast/Aeromotive rails use ORB-8 provisions at each end by default, and the return from the FPR is ORB-6 so all that matches as well.
Starting at the pickup the system goes:
- Walbro 400-854 install kit (assuming this is correct I need to verify it’s the same filter pickup as my current 255 LPH pump)
- Walbro 400 LPH fuel pump
- 3/8” ID submersible hose w/ fuel line clamps (they tell me that fuel injection hose for in-tank use is different to resist gas externally so careful on that score, props to Speedfab for the Walbro outlet measurements!)
- 3/8 hose barb to AN-8 female coupling
- AN-8 male to AN-8 male 90 deg bulkhead fitting (I had to order the nut separately)
- AN-8 female to AN-8 braided hose connection (straight)
- AN-8 braided hose
- AN-8 braided hose connector to AN-8 female (straight)
- AN-8 male to male coupling
- AN-8 female tube nut w/ sleeve
- 1/2” OD stainless hard line under the car (seamless 0.035” wall, 304 SS)
- AN-8 female tube nut w/ sleeve
- AN-8 male to ORB-10 coupler
- Aeromotive 12301 fuel filter (10 micron). You could also run a 12336 if you want a billet bracket too.
- ORB-10 to AN-8 male coupler
- AN-8 female to AN-8 hose connector (straight)
- AN-8 braided hose
- AN-8 hose connector to AN-8 female (90 deg)
- AN-8 male to ORB-8 coupler
Note both end of the Fast/Aeromotive rails (p/n FAST 146032–KIT) have ORB-8 provisions, however if you buy the kit, it comes with 2x ORB-8 to AN-8 male couplers, and 2x ORB-8 to AN-6 male couplers. I never could find specs on that so now you know. The later were no good to me and I had to get two more -8 to -8. Continuing on…
- Fast/Aeromotive fuel rail 1, (my passenger side)
- ORB -8 to AN -8 male coupler
- AN-8 female tube nut w/ sleeve
- 1/2" OD stainless hard line (fuel rail crossover)
- AN-8 female tube nut w/ sleeve
- AN-8 male to ORB-8 coupler
- Fast/Aeromotive fuel rail 2, (my driver side)
- ORB -8 to AN-8 male coupler
- AN-8 female to AN-8 hose connector (90 deg)
- AN-8 braided hose
- AN-8 hose connector to AN-8 female (straight)
- AN-8 male to ORB-10 coupler
- Fuel Pressure Regulator – Aeromotive 13101
- Fuel Pressure Gauge – Aeromotive 15633
- ORB-10 plug (for the not used side of the FPR)
- ORB-6 to AN-6 male coupler (output for the return)
- AN-6 female tube nut w/ sleeve
- 3/8” OD stainless hardline (back under the car, also seamless 0.035 wall, 304 SS)
- AN-6 female tube nut w/ sleeve
- AN-6 male to AN-6 male coupler
- AN-6 female to AN-6 hose connector (straight)
- AN-6 braided hose
- AN-6 hose connector to AN-6 female
- AN-6 male to AN-6 male 90 deg bulkhead fitting (again make sure you get the nut)
- AN-6 female tube nut w/ sleeve
- 3/8” hardline to plumb the return down to near the bottom of the tank.
The fittings are XRP and were bought by a friend with an account at a local dealer. Hard lines came as 20’ sticks from Tube Services, each main run under the car is a little shy of 10’ but I used extra for the cross over. All the big parts were ordered through Summit, and there was one price match I had them do that was worth a chunk of change: fuel pump. I think this store had it priced wrong http://store.propartsusa.com/i-498529.aspx (http://store.propartsusa.com/i-498529.aspx) as it used to be 95.06 (as of this writing they have it listed at $154.44) and Summit matched it for me. ;-)
Oh and since we’re on the topic I’ll be running 60 lb/hr fuel injectors to go with the above. Boring post, but hopefully it helps someone.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/fuelfittings.jpg)
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Fuel Hard Lines
All my hardline is 304 seamless stainless in 0.035 wall.
Line fab:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/fuellines3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/fuellines2.jpg)
No magic here other than starting with a template bent from welding rod. We basically went in and out of the car at just about every bend (some bends several times if I had to tweak something). An extra set of hands is a huge help.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/fuellines1.jpg)
I think I probably had this in and out 50 times all things considered. I’m guessing 30 or so with Anthony and another 20 getting everything to work with the hangers perfectly.
Getting reading to make the ends:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0675Custom.JPG)
Terminations use tube nuts with flared fittings.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0676Custom.JPG)
One bonus of going with the 1/2 and 3/8” OD (effectively the -8 / -6 combo) is that it lets me retain my stock fuel line hangers. I effectively just carved out the middle divider.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0629Custom.JPG)
And here it is installed..
Rear section
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0691Custom.JPG)
Under the car (nice and straight)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0692Custom.JPG)
Note: I’m not really worried about chaffing between lines but I’ll keep an eye on it. If anyone has thoughts on simple (and thin) padding I could run that would be helpful.
Wrapping up the frame rail
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0694Custom.JPG)
View from up top
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0737Custom.JPG)
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Fuel Filter / Fuel Pressure Regulator
Engine bay is a little crowded by the master cylinders so I had to figure out where I was going to put the fuel filter on the input side of the rails and the fuel pressure regulator on the output side. In both cases I was planning on running these items with hard line on one side and braided line on the other.
Fuel filter was pretty easy. There were already two nice inserts on the firewall in a good location. The 1/2” hardline ducks under the steering rack and then pops up between clutch and brake master cylinders.
This is basically the same shot from above except with the addition of 65imp's foam mock up block to check space remaining for the exhaust.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0678Custom.JPG)
Padded stainless steel clamps are from McMaster. Aeromotive sells a billet clamp but I didn't need the weight and I wanted a little compliance to the mount.
Fuel Pressure regulator was a little harder to solve. Placement against the shock tower seemed to fit the below while allowing enough clearance from below for the hard line to stub up (that’s not the case just below the fender line) but the shock tower had a curve and elevation change I’d have to deal with.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0679Custom.JPG)
I ended up mounting it there anyways with a little custom bracketry. Started with a chunk of 0.063 stainless. Band sawed, bent, drilled, and sanded my way into something serviceable. OEM on the left, mine on the right.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0683Custom.JPG)
It has bends for the OEM jog as well as a horizontal bend to account for the curvature of the shock tower in a location far enough inboard to let me stub up the 3/8” hard line from below.
Final fit check…
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0689Custom.JPG)
Drilling holes for riv nuts in the top of the shock tower was interesting. I borrowed a 90 deg drill from harbor freight and used a cut down drill bit to let me punch a pilot hole (one spot still had to be center punched about a dozen times to get the bit not to wander at a slight off angle).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0736Custom.JPG)
From there, I disconnected the swaybar and dropped out the strut so I could drill it with a full size bit from inside the wheel well.
Painted the raw steel and added a couple m6 riv nuts. Installed. Done and done.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0740Custom.JPG)
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Fuel Rail Bracket Problems
As I mentioned in the parts list, I’m running FAST/Aeromotive fuel rail kit (p/n FAST 146032–KIT). There are several different kits depending on which FAST intake manifold and injector combo you’re running. My injectors are LS1 style (2.5” between top and bottom o-rings).
The problem was that the supplied brackets were far too long and I was afraid the rails were going to leak.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/railclips1.jpg)
Note how raised the rail would be if I mated to the hole…
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/railclips2.jpg)
The more I look at aftermarket rails, the more impressed I am with the OEM design that has clips to hold the injectors in place.
Anyways, I already had the parts and they do look really nice. I assume they can be made to run safely if I’m careful. I can’t entirely blame FAST as I don’t know for sure whether my particular injectors might be on the short side. O-ring to o-ring measure correct per FAST tech support but maybe the body where it bottoms out is different. Easiest solution was to rebuild my own brackets.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/railclips3.jpg)
Just one more of those little things that you spend two evenings doing to get right. The details seem to take so much longer with little kids in the house (but I wouldn’t trade them for the world).
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Keep It Clean
I’ll have to come back to fuel when I do the in-tank bits. In the meantime, I’ve been getting a bunch of other parts ready for install. I’ve been quite enjoying use of a kick-ass sand blaster with super fine media at my work.
Case in point… Here’s a couple 8.8 diffs straight from the wrecking yard (I picked up and then sold an extra). My housing is on the left.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean1.jpg)
After power wash
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean2.jpg)
After sand blast (masking all the bits that counts)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean3.jpg)
I’m then hitting all my parts with clear engine enamel so they’ll be easier to wipe down later. They kind of take on a more uniform grey when after clear coat instead of the “white metal” look but I still like it.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean4.jpg)
Valve covers are getting the same treatment but first I wanted to eliminate one of the bosses. Now you see it.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean5.jpg)
Now you don’t.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean6.jpg)
Crappy pic, but I also shaved off all the casting flash marks around the edges.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean7.jpg)
I’m doing most of my accessories this way. Same take some more creative masking than others.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean8.jpg)
Need to take some finished pictures but it’s looking good and gives quite a few pieces in the engine bay a uniform “themed” look to them and yet it should be easy to touch up if I ever need to.
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Nick Williams/Fast 102 clearancing
I’m going to be running a NW cable throttle body and Fast 102 intake manifold. DanZan came over the other day and was helping me wrench so as a quick check we pulled my hood out of the rafters and threw it one. Conflicts looked like they’d be:
-Fuel hard line cross over (going to have to redo it.)
-Raised lettering on the FAST (shave the lettering then build up and carve my hood slightly)
-Tip of throttle body above the idle are control valve.
Here’s what the NW 102 looks like stock (note the big radius up top).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/nw102stock.jpg)
Had a few lunch hours free so I set up and milled some of the meat off.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/nw102a.jpg)
Next day, hand carved the radiuses into the edges and buffed it out on a rubberized grinding wheel. Think I gained about a 1/4" of clearance at the TB doing this.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/nw102b.jpg)
By the way, got the engine mounted this past weekend. More detail on that shortly. Thought folks might like a look at the overall since I’m following up on the cleaning post.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/z07overall1.jpg)
It's starting to look like a car again...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/z07overall2.jpg)
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Where did you get the 1/2" hard line? Lately I've been wanting to do something similar one day.
One thing that would worry me is the possibility of the lines chaffing, maybe you could get away with running the lines through some heat shrink along the length of each hard line.
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Hard line came from Tube Service Co. (www.tubeservice.com (http://www.tubeservice.com))
That place was huge. The automatic tube sorter was pretty awesome. Check the guy in the background for an idea of scale.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tubeservice1.jpg)
I strapped the two twenty foot sticks to the outside of my Jeep at the door handles, hatch and hood, and then drove home like I was jousting.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/tubeservice2.jpg)
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Monster Clutch 11” Stage 4 Long(ish) Term Review”
While I was putting things back together I reinstalled my clutch.
As a reminder, I’d been running a Monster 11” single disk, with the sintered iron clutch pucks. I decided on this clutch because of Monster’s positive reviews, it had very little dust and all the organic friction material clutches I’d ever run killed slave cylinders. Well it solved that problem. It had plenty of grab, effort was heavy-ish but fine. The downside was that this clutch was still pretty nasty in stop and go traffic and it never really got past the “break in” chatter. Every now and then I would still do the amateur move with the bucking car (which makes you feel super good about your driving abilities let me tell you.)
I had only run this for about ~5,000 miles, but I was happy enough with its behavior to not be worth dropping the big money on a good twin disk (the RPS carbon carbon billet is what I think I want).
Turn out minimal dust is not the same as dust free:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Monster1.jpg)
The bigger issue is that I noticed that the pucks had worn to the point the rivet heads were just starting to rub. This thing only had 5,000 miles on it. Not too far from the verbiage Monster insults on their website:
“in the end we bring it to you, the consumer, the guys and gals out there spending hard earned money of your own to get every single ounce out of your six speed car! Hoping that, “this is it; this is the last clutch I’m gonna have to buy for a while.” I’ve heard it time and time again, “I put a -brand x- clutch in my car and it only lasted 2,000 miles, when I called them they said I installed it wrong and don’t want to help out!”
http://www.monsterclutches.com/shop/index.php/about/?___store=default (http://www.monsterclutches.com/shop/index.php/about/?___store=default)
So when I call them they tell me, “yeah, 5k miles? That’s normal for a sintered iron clutch. Great. Thanks guys. The problem is that they simple didn’t give users much margin to work with.
Compare the warn and unworn surfaces of the old friction disk:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Monster2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Monster3.jpg)
0.023” of wear per side isn’t much particular given the surface comes rough and had to break in in the first place. Anyways, after enquiring what I could do about it I decided to give them one more try and sample the ceramic friction disk. It’s supposed to chatter a bit less and last a bit longer (20k miles was thrown out on the phone but we’ll see).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0882Custom.JPG)
Brismo7 helped me get that aligned and in. We found a few more stripped threads where the bellhousing and oil pan mate but a few helicoils solved that right quick. Steve had a great suggestion of setting the trans on a workbench and using the engine hoist to adjust the alignment of the engine dangling in the air. This went a great deal smoother than the last time I tried doing this under the car (where-in much sailor-ish language occurred).
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Check out the Mcleod twin disc Joel. I installed it in Russ's beast and it is by far the nicest performance setup I have installed. Street/stock feel and all the grab you can handle.
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I've heard good things about the McCleod from several folks. That said, I just don't really trust any organic disc after going through my string of 4 dead slave cylinders. If this can't hang I'll call you in a year to get the update report on how it's behaving long run. A new disk was only about $200 so it wasn't a huge investment to give the Monster one more chance. It's not perfect, but it's not bad either.
Also my experience with McCleod is somewhat colored by the last McCleod twin I ran (they're no longer the same I know). There's quite a bit of discussion about the three finger "long style" via diaphragm style in Jose's thread starting around post 70. http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=11174.msg188590#msg188590 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=11174.msg188590#msg188590)
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Anyone have any good long term reviews of mutli disc clutches? I loved the ability to rev with the lightweight small stuff, but I also have a street car so it can't be a light switch of engagement.
Maybe what I need to do is to figure a better slave cylinder (quarter master or whatever) that can handle the dust.
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A good friend of mine has The RPS setup in his Z06 and has been drving it for a while now (about 2 years), still loves it. I have the McCloed RXT setup and still love it after a year. Driving the two cars there is no difference between the two clutches (both have billet flywheels) and we both use the factory slave cylinders with no problems. I like the RXT and would recommend it, but either of them would be a fine choice in my mind.
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McLeod RXT
/end discussion.
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Like I said ^^^^^. I did get a kick out of the fact that ther pressure plate is stamped "exedy".
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I've used the ACT T1S-G01 twin plate in a couple cars, and love it, but some people have complained about the travel being 'low', but haven't experienced that in my car. Great engagement (total street car) and handles 1000ft lbs or something. Reasonably light, 40lbs shipping weight, actual clutch/flywheel/etc is like 36 or 38? And it's $1100 or something, super affordable.
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Now when the time comes I'll actually know where to find it.
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with the 36" speedway bar, what's the offset of your arms? (measured from the outside edge of the speedway bar.)
Also, did you do any calculations on the forces on those bearings? mcmaster has "light duty" written all over them, and I imagine they see a good bit of force...
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-If you buy the arms from speedway they come blank (and long) so you can bend to fit (assuming you have the means to bend them)
-From memory it's about a 3" offset per side (including my pyramid spacers).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CIMG2860Medium.JPG)
-Bearings were these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-mounted-bearings/=m1wlem (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-mounted-bearings/=m1wlem)
I did calcs on the twisting forces designing the bar itself but for the bearings I just ball parked it. McMaster does refers to these as light duty, but with bearings that could mean rotation speed so who knows who's defining "light duty" in this context? I will say, you got me curious so I did a little bit of math... A P rating of 2000 psi with the area of 1 1/4" shaft size (1.25" x 1.313" width) means these are rated for about between 1970-3,280 lbf per side (the lower number is if you put a 40% knock down on the silhouette area of the bushing to be conservative). I think I'd be doing math on the bolts first if I was really seeing those kinds of loads. Yes you can taco an FD swaybar mount with a stiff bar but in that load case the path is pretty convoluted.
FWIW the bearing housing that comes with these guys is pretty close in sizing to the metal bushing straps that come on the RB bar I ran prior. The kicker was that I knew several others who'd already run these succesfully. ISCRacing.net used to sell a Speedway based FC bar that used these (don't see it on their site anymore but I might be worth a call) and several of Charlie's guys run them too.
-Joel
PS for anyone else who missed it, there was quite a bit more info on the bar back in post #193
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg88016#msg88016 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg88016#msg88016)
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Thanks Joel.
I talked to speedway and they'll custom bend arms and re-heat treat them to whatever offset you want. I was quoted @ $57 each
Those combined with a $111 bar, and 2x$11 bearings makes this relatively cheap.
You just have to make sure you have a straight shot between the mounting locations :)
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You probably want to factor in the end-links and chassis mods to let this bearing work, but I agree, it's a hell of a setup for not a great deal of money. I'll see if I can get a more precise measurement on the offset I'm running next time I'm under the car.
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Anyone know what the little brackets that interface to band clamps are called?
Been surfing McMaster for almost and hour and can't seem to find these (bottom piece, here shown by Canton with a pair of T-bolt clamps.
(https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/images/products/24200.jpg)
This is going to be used for my fuel filter (2" OD). I could break down and buy Aeromotive 12305
(http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/0/027/027-12305.jpg)
But $70 for a tiny piece of billet kills me and really I'd want to two.
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"T bolt mounting clamp" is what I've found them under in the past.
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Did you try to search E-bay for "Fuel filter bracket" ? I found this one quickly but there are a bunch of billet ones in the $20 range. Might not be exactly what you want though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-Pump-Oil-filter-Adjustable-Mounting-Bracket-with-Stand-cradle-47-56mm-tbolt-/251137995512?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a78fdb2f8&vxp=mtr#ht_3982wt_1004 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-Pump-Oil-filter-Adjustable-Mounting-Bracket-with-Stand-cradle-47-56mm-tbolt-/251137995512?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a78fdb2f8&vxp=mtr#ht_3982wt_1004)
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Good info gents, thanks. Ash nailed the proper name but I didn't find the mounted style in anything smaller than 2.5" before Bill's link.
The other piece of research that's taking too much of my time is planning power steering. I've been trying to make this thing look decent to be able to take to shows and rep Ronin. At the moment I have the GTO pump (which is ideal from a flow and pressure standpoint but is ugly as hell). I also want to be able to play at track days and not worry about the pump failing and in general the stocker's don't hold up as well as aftermarket pumps (a big cooler would probably help that but still...)
I've narrowed it down to three options...
1) Stick with the GTO pump and replace the terrible looking reservoir... http://www.pwrradiators.com/gto-power-steering-reservoir/. (http://www.pwrradiators.com/gto-power-steering-reservoir/.) That's all I'd be able to do on the bling front though... Synister MotorSports used to make an awesome billet pulley for the 04-06 GTO but the company folded. Shame, because it was rad and no one else makes a nice pulley for the GTO pump.
2) Buy the turn one pump: http://www.turnone-steering.com/online-store# (http://www.turnone-steering.com/online-store#)!/~/product/category=4471097&id=19307275
-Plus the wazee f-body pulley (which is sex): http://store.wazees.com/Products/32-1997-2004-f-body-ls1-power-steering-pulley.aspx (http://store.wazees.com/Products/32-1997-2004-f-body-ls1-power-steering-pulley.aspx)
-Plus an f-body PS bracket (there are a couple billet options for these too, but Alpers Motorsports has inconsistent pictures so I don't know what I'm getting and I'm not a big fan of CBM so I don't want to rock a big logo for them.
3) Run the KRC pump setup. Their website is terrible so there's no way to tell the difference between iron and aluminum and to be sure which brackets are compatible with which pumps. That said, it at least comes with a decent looking pulley and it might give me space to package a short catch can next to the reservoir. This route might also be the easiest to tune.
I'm kind of leaning KRC at the moment, but I'm open to thoughts if folks have opinions.
Whatever I do, I need a PS cooler since I don't want just run a loop anymore... I've been looking at the Derale units. http://www.jegs.com/p/Derale/Derale-Power-Steering-Coolers/1289908/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/p/Derale/Derale-Power-Steering-Coolers/1289908/10002/-1) Anyone have thoughts or recommendations on appropriate sizing?
-Joel
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I run the turn one pump and a 10 row -6 AN earls oil cooler for mine, good feel and good temps plus they use a nice roller bearing for the input shaft on the pump instead of a bushing. The wazee pulley would look good too. So that has my vote.
Out of curiousity, why not CBM for the bracket?
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Been talking to KRC. Their iron pumps are rated to 5500 rpm (that's pump rpm and is basically the same as most OEM pumps), so for a track day car they said I basically have two option if I want the pump to live. I can 1) run a big 8" pulley with the iron pump to let me play in the 6k+ engine rpm range at speed (my ATI -10% balancer is 6.78" diam) however, that might not have enough assist down low.
2) I could run one of their custom pro series aluminum pumps rated to 9000 rpms. The downside to the pro series is that I'd be in for about $900 for pump w/ tank, 6.0 or 6.5" pulley, and bracket. The upside to the pro-series pumps is that KRC tells me I wouldn't need a cooler and it'd make the ability to package a catch can next to the throttle body quite a bit easier. It's still a lot of money for a power steering pump though.
In terms of CBM, Ronin had a booth next to those guys one time. Now they may have just been having an off day (it was crazy hot) but the guys running the booth weren't very friendly and the goods they had displayed were mostly non-functional bling: faux high rise valve covers etc. In this case, the power steering bracket looks pretty nice, I just don't really feel like advertizing a brand name with random flames up up there. If I bought it I'd probably machine off the logo.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj90/reguzmans/LT1_LS7%20Conversion/WPBRACKET.jpg)
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I have the Alpers mount that I don't need since the guy I bought my F-body pump from sent the stock bracket. I can snap you some pic's if you go that route. Just need what I paid for it. I think it was only $30 or so, but I need to look it up in my spreadsheet.
Let me know....
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When I said I couldn't figure out the Alpers here's the difference. I ran into those guys through Ebay but they have listing showing two styles. If you then go to the Alpers website you find pics of this one (which is unfinished):
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/p480x480/554655_368641296516329_1171319129_n.jpg)
And of this one:
(http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/uploads/monthly_01_2012/post-21317-1327008997.jpg)
It actually looks like it might be a new design vs. old design issue. http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=256922. (http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=256922.) Scuter, which version do you have?
Let me do a bit more reading on Turn One, but if I don't go KRC, then it looks like Turn One pump, Alpers bracket, Wazee pulley, plus a cooler would be the way to go.
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Figured I should throw up some pics of the random bits of progress I've been making...
Before the powertrain went all the way in I decided to try a couple modifications I'd been reading about.
Anti Venom Mod and
Tick Skip Shift Delete
Anti-Venom Mod (AKA detent spacing). Supposed to make the t56 shift a bit smoother. May be a while before I get to test it, but here it is going in...
Used two washers for a total thickness of 0.100" (read about 300 posts on the subject trying to decide 1 washer or 2, then decided this was stupid and did the more common version thereof).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/AntiVenomMod1.jpg)
Here's the detent in question with the washers
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/AntiVenomMod2.jpg)
And installed, it's up high on the passenger side kind of in the middle of the trans.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/AntiVenomMod3.jpg)
Tick skip shift delete is just a stupidly expensive custom aluminum bolt ($30 plus $8 shipping). They even make you re-use your old o-ring.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SkipShiftDelete1.jpg)
That said, I've got a quasi embarrassing story about why it was worth running this thing. Since it's the internet and we've all screwed up some things one time or another I figured I might as well share. Way back in 2005 or so when I first modified my wiring harness Danzan, Brismo, and I wired in a resistor to fool skip shift. We cut off the harness plug and left the solenoid unplugged.
Here's the bitch of it. I've had trans in and out a half dozen times. Turns out the skip shift delete solenoid uses the EXACT same plug as the reverse lockout. Somewhere along the way I manage to plug the remaining plug (for reverse lockout) into the skip shift. This and I've been complaining about how my trans refuses to shift hard into third gear whenever I have the RPMs rev'ed up. Oh, and I also managed to miss fifth and try to shift into reverse at my last track day before the car came down.
You guys get where I'm going with this? No lockout and weird shifting... Methinks a bit of cross wiring might explain that.
Never again, you skip shifting bastards! In with an over-priced plug and out with any chances for cross wiring in the future.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SkipShiftDelete2.jpg)
Upper left in the above shot near the serial numbers you can see.
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Because so few folks have good shots of the Ronin trans plates going in here's that. I also pulled all the OEM asphalt and a fair bit of dynamat extreme out of my floorboard areas. Dropped about 17 lbs for maybe 8 hours hard labor. Worth it? Probably not but since I was in it this far... Ehh why not?
Match Drilled and fit check on the passenger side (note former grannies mounts holes welded up!)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/TransMountPlates1.jpg)
Slight tweaking for optimized fit (not perfectly flat anymore)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/TransMountPlates2.jpg)
Getting ready for install, Driver side all buttered up with high temp RTV which I then clamped down while wet:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/TransMountPlates4.jpg)
Passenger side:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/TransMountPlates5.jpg)
Driver side:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/TransMountPlates4.jpg)
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Since I had the seats out to get the power-train bolted in permanently I decided to redo my passenger seat mounting. When it did it before I had it dropped about as low as I could get it which was good for weight but the asymmetry between sides (and the fact it rode just a bit crooked bugged me) so I redid it.
Here's the inside where the floor has the exhaust bulge.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SeatRedo1.jpg)
The side of the momo seat isn't perfect flat either so I ended up carving this a bit to get to land better.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SeatRedo2.jpg)
Other side comparing current (installed) and former plates.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SeatRedo3.jpg)
And this little ball of awesome is the reason my car hasn't move it a while. Been a while since her shot with tires in my kitchen (somewhere much much earlier in this thread).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/SeatRedo4.jpg)
Playing with daughters > priority than wrenching on cars... but I still try to get in some wrench time here and there.
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My new engine came with what I think is an LS2 starter (has supports for two long bolts). Funny thing was that it seemed to be conflicting with my bell housing. Looked a little closer and it appears that it's not interchangeable with the early F-body parts.
Compare the difference in elevation of the snouts.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/StarterDifferences1.jpg)
Haven't had time to fully research the differences, but at least wanted to put this out there as a Buyer beware. P/Ns for the two versions.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/StarterDifferences2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/StarterDifferences3.jpg)
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The power train is fully in and I've been working on the Ronin 8.8 install.
Rear end bushing install. Mazda Comp yet again (maybe the third time I've used these and I'm a fan).
Little bit of grease.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffBushingInstall1.jpg)
Worm gear clamp to close the gap and help this get started.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffBushingInstall3.jpg)
Pressing it:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffBushingInstall4.jpg)
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Random aside:
Anyone looking for a nice custom strut tower bar? ~3lbs of chromoly. It was awesome but it's not even close to working with the Fast 102.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/BraceVSfast102.jpg)
$120 shipped.
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I also solved my fuel filter bracket conundrum. Russell 649053.
http://www.amazon.com/Russell-649053-Fuel-Filter-Clamp/dp/B003CH062K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375518477&sr=8-1&keywords=russell+649053 (http://www.amazon.com/Russell-649053-Fuel-Filter-Clamp/dp/B003CH062K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375518477&sr=8-1&keywords=russell+649053)
(http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/large/rus/649053.jpg)
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Ill take your strut brace.
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Sorry Ash, it already sold via PMs. I'm planning to design a new one which will work for me. A while back I helped Anthony water jet several end plates to serve as a basis for future bars. Let me know if I should have him build a couple.
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Yea Anthony is going to do one for me. I thought yours would be a good interim piece.
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In terms of CBM, Ronin had a booth next to those guys one time. Now they may have just been having an off day (it was crazy hot) but the guys running the booth weren't very friendly and the goods they had displayed were mostly non-functional bling: faux high rise valve covers etc. In this case, the power steering bracket looks pretty nice, I just don't really feel like advertizing a brand name with random flames up up there. If I bought it I'd probably machine off the logo.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj90/reguzmans/LT1_LS7%20Conversion/WPBRACKET.jpg)
Hey just a heads up ! I have a CBM ps bracket and a stock pump fits however a stock ps tank does NOT fit with out removing/shaving a part of it off!!!
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Prepping for the 8.8 install:
Paint
Several pieces I’d ordered weren’t available with zinc or any real corrosion resistant coating (black oxide doesn’t count in my book) so I wanted to at least give parts a chance of staying nice and painted several bits.
Some creative masking:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/1350painting3.jpg)
Results:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/1350painting2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/1350painting1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/10DSC_0617Custom.JPG)
Halfshafts
Just a couple shots of the assembly process. I’m trying the 626 outers from Ricardo (v8rx7builder), but I still have a spare set of t2 axles I can fall back on if needed.
Parts laid out. Inner stub axles are powdercoated, inners are painted because I ran out of time.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/10DSC_0608Custom.JPG)
Getting the heavy circ clips off of the old shafts takes snap ring pliers and a couple small screw drivers. It’s damn easy to slip and stab yourself, repeatly, and then have to try again. Getting that same heavy snap ring back on was a little challenging until I figured out you could use a socket and mallet to get it to spring over the chamfer at the end of the shaft.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/10DSC_0611Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/10DSC_0616Custom.JPG)
At the other end of the shaft you just have to be sure the chamfer on the underside of the tripod bearing goes on first. Otherwise it’s pretty straightforward. No inner snap ring at this end, just the outboard one.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/10DSC_0609Custom.JPG)
One interesting detail to note. Explorer halfshafts come in two diameters, one of which is huge, but it actually tappers back down and all splines are common so far as I know. There are definitely some nasty stress risers involved in Ford’s design though.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build5.jpg)
Done. Pretty pretty princess halfshafts ready to go.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/10DSC_0620Custom.JPG)
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Quick sidebar if you're trying to remove outer CV's.
I’ve torn down several axles using a hammer with good success. I do recommend you hammer on an intermediate object a small chunk of plywood works well. A few pictures follow for how we do it.
1) Clamp the axle in a vice dangling it downward off the table (this is an FD axle but the idea is the same). I put a trash can filled with newspaper just below to catch the CV.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HalfshaftTeardown1.jpg)
2) Bend the CV over at an angle to expose the race. My target chunk of wood then positioned on two fingers of the race. I use the old boot to provide a touch of pressure from above to hold the wood in place, then strike HARD vertically. It’s a blow almost like you’re splitting wood.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HalfshaftTeardown2.jpg)
3) If it doesn’t let go in 1-2 strikes rotate the axle 120 degrees and try again. Typically, it’ll fly off into your trash can. In the below picture I hit it just hard enough that the clip popped and CV moved (note the gap to the retaining ring.)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HalfshaftTeardown3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HalfshaftTeardown4.jpg)
If all else fails I fall back to my brute force press setup, but typically I don't have to get there.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/7DSC_0939Custom.JPG)
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8.8 Diff Trimming – Cover and Housing
I’ve cut the ears off 3 or 4 diff covers at this point and the latest turned out the best I’ve done. If it looks like it was done on a mill but I really did it by hand, that’s what I’m going for.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffTrimming5.jpg)
Typically I've found that angle grinders w/ cut off wheels work well for roughing out the part but I try to leave 1/8 or 3/16” more material than needed since angle grinder cuts in thick parts always wander a bit.
A big belt sander is really what you want to do to fine tune the shape and get cuts perfectly planar with each other.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffTrimming6.jpg)
I break all the sharp edges with a deburring tool when I’m done.
On the housing side we need to take down the lumps at the top and cut down the walls where the ABS sensor went before. Same concept here: angle grinder followed by belt sander. BTW there’s nothing to that ABS sensor so I cut mine down and turned it into a perfect little plug.
Here it is all trimmed, I was relatively stoked on how nice the cuts turned out, angles meeting at midpoints of bosses etc.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffTrimming1.jpg)
Bottom of front mount. Just a small trim to help give clearance vs the tie rod mount point on the FC subframe.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffTrimming4.jpg)
My last area of trimming is optional. I want isolation at the front mount so I like rubber mounts but I also want this to be quite firm. Like most rubber bushing the center section of the ford mount sticks out beyond the surrounding rubber area (note the shadows of light leakage).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffTrimming2.jpg)
I take and cut down the center sleeve so it’s just a bit below flush thereby bringing all the surrounding rubber into contact with the Ronin bent strap for the 8.8 front mount.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DiffTrimming3.jpg)
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8.8 Diff Build
I really debated just paying someone else to do this for me. It’s about $100 to have someone set it up (assuming you provide the pieces) and by the time you work out the tools and time required, having it built for you makes a heck of a lot more sense that what I did.
That said, I was curious… and I like doing stuff myself particularly when there’s an opportunity to learn something. So I started by ordering a DVD from a gent online who makes well reviewed DIY tutorials: Ken Collins AKA Bad Shoe Productions: http://www.badshoeproductions.com/eight.html (http://www.badshoeproductions.com/eight.html) Ken’s tutorial is a solid piece of work and I’m pretty confident I could do about any Ford rear end these days assuming I had a complete rear end to start with (giving me a baseline on shim thicknesses) and could find specs on the preloading required.
The rebuilt kit itself I purchased from Drivetrain America: It’s kit DRK311AMK http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-1831-drk311amk-ford-88-irs-master-timken-differential-bearing-kit.aspx (http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-1831-drk311amk-ford-88-irs-master-timken-differential-bearing-kit.aspx)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build3.jpg)
Their IRS kit is just about complete and even comes with RTV to seal it back up. The IRS version includes the stub axle side bearings (it was a bit hard to find an 8.8 kit with decent bearings which specified it was for IRS). Note, this does comes with stub axle side seal sized for the Explorer version of the Ford 8.8 IRS (meaning it’s not so good for Mustang Cobra guys, a fact I wasn’t sure of when I ordered it.
One oddity though, of the three new seals you’ll want if you’re doing a complete rebuilt this only comes with two, a pinion seal and ONE stub seal (not two). I found the part number and picked up an extra seal (Federal Mogul 100537V).
Only seals Included:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build4.jpg)
For the build itself, I didn’t have all the pullers needed and most of the bearings in this diff looked great.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build11.jpg)
Note, the first 8.8 I bought, now being used as a Ronin show piece, had trashed bearings so it’s worth opening it up to check. Because it looked so nice so I wussed out and didn’t change everything, but rather only the bearings I needed to and all the seals. I have the other bearings if it starts to howl on me down the road but for now I’m really itching to get this back on the road as fast as I can.
A couple tips… The first major tool I needed and ended up making myself was a case spreader to be able to get carrier shims in and out. You’re looking to spread the case about 0.030” as measured at the outside surfaces. Here’s my DIY version.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build1.jpg)
I got the internals for the rear with trashed bearings out without using spreader but I’m not sure you’d be getting a decent version out without one. All the carrier bearing pre-load occurs via case spread.
Once the internal were out the first step was to install my new yoke (part numbers in painting sidebar above). For re-install I’m now running a solid pinion shim kit instead of the crush sleeve. It took a few tries to get this dialed in so my final measurements were:
Former crush sleeve:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build14.jpg)
Solid shim stack up:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build15.jpg)
Racetec (source of my solid pinion shim kit) recommend you start slightly thicker and drop down in 0.002” increments. For install you put the thick shims toward the lip on the pinion shaft to avoid deforming the thin shims.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build16.jpg)
Pinion pre-load must be done torqued and this done with the old nut torqued to 125 ft-lbs but that meant building yet another custom tool to restrain the yoke. I probably could have just viced it, but I already had the thing painted, so I made a tool that used the strap holes.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build9.jpg)
The above stack up resulted in about 16 in-lbs of torque at break away and 6 in-lbs of torque when it’s already moving. With new bearings the spec is 16-29 in-lbs not counting break away, but used bearings are typically 5-7 in-lbs so I’m right where I should be.
Measuring preload also requires a specific torque wrench I didn’t have (aka dial indicator torque gauge). I bought a used Snap On but if you wanted to do it on the cheap, a Park Tool model TW1 from your local bike shop would get it done. A click type torque wrench isn’t cutting it.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build32.jpg)
Last thought on the pinion side of things. I had a old timer gear head I trust recommend packing the seal with wheel bearing grease. It makes sense to me that some lube in this area would help it live a long happy life.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build17.jpg)
Interestingly right after I did this I discovered that the bonus stub axle seal I bought came pre-packed with grease. Previously I'd never known whether I should be doing this or not and I’d just been wiped the seals down with the fluid I was sealing against (engine oil, transmission fluid, gear oil or whatever). However, as I think about it, running a heavier grease makes sense from a longevity of lubrication perspective.
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Great progress Joel!!
What u joints are you set up for on the driveshaft?
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Great progress Joel!!
What u joints are you set up for on the driveshaft?
Some of this (IE seat update) was progress from 4 months ago but thanks. I've barely had time to wrench so I've been taking pictures as I go but haven't been posting much. It does feel good to have light at the end of the tunnel. I really want the rear end 100% in and off my workbench before I launch into the header/exhaust project and that's the biggest item still on the list.
I'm doing the 1350 u-joints. I'd probably be fine with 1310s but decided to go this way both because I like the margin and because it made sense to do it the hardest way possible so I can help folks who might run into issues as Ronin customers. (Hey, we're here to serve) :yay:
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8.8 Diff Build Continued
Since I was re-using the pinion bearings, that was one less shim to deal with up front and pinion depth would already be set (that shim lives under the bigger bearing which presses onto the pinion). That basically meant I still need to move ring gear over to my new diff, add bearings, rough in the shims to check backlash, check tooth pattern, and set preload.
Getting the ring gear off isn’t terrible. It basically takes clamping the whole thing hard in a vise and using a drift to drive the ring gear down by banging on the bottom of each the now empty bolt holes in a circle. I wrapped a bunch of newspaper and plastic wrap around the body to keep the ring gear from falling when it came loose.
My new diff is an Eaton/Detriot TrueTrac. I’ve always liked the helical gear differentials behavior wise and for road course duty it made sense to me.
I’ve been told you can cook the ring gear at 300 for an hour to warm and at the same time throw your diff in the freezer aid with reinstallation. However, I didn’t find that necessary. I did find that getting the hole patterned aligned is critical and not very forgiving.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build12.jpg)
Once you get it close you want to start getting the hardware threaded and pull it the rest of the way in with fasteners. I used old hardware to pull it down. Removed and grabbed the new bolts, add Locktite 242 (blue) and 77 lf-lbs in a star pattern follow to lock it in.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build13.jpg)
Pressing bearings on was mostly straight forward with one exception. To get the new inner bearing race to bottom out you have to press it a bit further than what would be flush to the outside surface. After rooting around for a piece of tubing or a socket that would work—striking out in both cases—I caved and decided to just pull a race from the old hammered diff.
I was seriously convinced my puller was going to break trying to get this off. I finally decided I was going to torque the puller till something lets loose. Thankfully it was the race but I did bend my handle pretty good.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build8.jpg)
You can see how ugly the bearings were in the other diff.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build34.jpg)
One you have an inner race separated that becomes the perfect tool to finish the press of the good bearing.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build10.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build33.jpg)
Now comes the tricky part. I took quite a few measurements of the old carrier vs the new and it was close but I was finding numbers with a few thousandths variation. The solid shims that came with my diff were 0.264” and 0.280” so I started by using the shim stack that came with my rebuilt kit to mock in a shims at 0.259” and 0.275” (0.005” under on each side, but potentially leaving a bit of preload since I had to use the spreader to get them in).
That actually worked out pretty well. My runout on the assembly was only about 0.0015” on 0.003” allowed.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build23.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build24.jpg)
Note: backlash, run out, and tooth patterns all have to be checked with the carrier caps torqued. Another spec at 77 ft-lbs.
Backlash was between 0.009 and 0.011 depending where I checked vs. runout. The allowable range is 0.008” to 0.015” backlash with a preferred target of 0.010”
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build18.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build19.jpg)
It was close enough I went ahead and checked tooth pattern.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build20.jpg)
Paint on the goo (also included in the rebuild kit) and give it one rotation pass of the pinion. You effectively just crank over the pinion a few time while holding firm pressure on the ring gear in the opposite direction to ensure it gets some pressure at the gear contact point.
Pattern looked pretty good—a nice confirmation of my pinion depth as well—on both drive (vertical) and coast (angled) sides of the teeth.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build21.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build22.jpg)
That meant now I was ready to set preload. To keep my backlash and gear pattern I needed to be adding and subtracting the same amounts on each side vs the 0.259 and 0.275 I’d just checked. For the aluminum housing you want a total of 0.014” preload or +0.007” on each side vs. whatever shims you can just slide in by hand (With an iron housing the correct spec is 0.012” total preload or +0.006” each side). Problem is that my new bearing races were just a hair’s breadth larger than semi-circular bores I was dropping this into.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build25.jpg)
That made shifting the races sideways to get them snug horizontally in order to slide in new shims a royal PITA. I finally found that the only method that worked was to be sliding shims in with the races in place but not quite seated all the way down in the half bores of the housing where it would bind.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build26.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build27.jpg)
Unfortunately I’d used all but one of all of my shim stacks to make the 0.259” and 0.275” I was trying to adjust up or down from. That was already 0.010” less than what came in the diff so I pulled one 0.009 shim and tried it 0.019” under my originals. That was just a bit loose, and I figured I maybe need a few more thousandths.
So then I used the solid 0.264” shim with a stack up measure 0.266” on the opposite side. Backlash would be wrong but this would work out to exactly 0.014” under my original solid shims if it fit well. At the end of the day this setup it was a little snug but I could still move the full diff assembly in and out by hand relative to the shims with no spread to the case.
I called that pay dirt, used my case spreader and installed my original 0.264 and 0.280 carrier shim. Final backlash was 0.011” so just a hair loose of target (but good for road racing where things may get hot).
Rechecked tooth pattern and results weren’t quite as perfect; I found some minor shifts in and out between teeth. However, it varies based upon which teeth I check and I’m sure I’m being more anal retentive than a shop doing this day in and day out so I called it good. Two areas shown for comparison.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build28.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build29.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build30.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build31.jpg)
One last final twist. The TrueTrac diff comes with an access port intended to allow install of one of two provided spacers which in turn keep the axles with C-clips (IE those used with a solid rear axle) from sliding inward.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build7.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build6.jpg)
The problem is that when using this diff with IRS stub axles and circ clips the spacer is just free to fall out either axle bore and I won’t be able to easily remove the diff cover once in the car to install the spacer after the fact.
While some guys on the net report running their IRS TrueTrac’s without the spacer I was a bit concerned that my stubs could still try to slide inward putting unnecessary wear on my shaft seals. Like the stock diff, the circ clips pop out past splines into a void space (it’s not actually a dedicated circ clip groove).
I ended up calling Eaton to chat it up. They recommend I install the spacer with a dab of heavy wheel bearing grease to keep it in position and just be careful to keep it horizontal during install. The little bit of grease shouldn’t compromise the gear oil so I’m going to give it go and see what happens.
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TrueTrac Diff vs. Synthetic Gear Oil
Now that I’m ready to install the new rear (hasn’t happened yet) a question for the forum: Eaton doesn’t recommend synthetic gear oil with TrueTracs as it can be “too slippery which can affect torque bias” and “can create a screeching noise”. No detail on which synthetics, why or how it occurs. I’d been planning to run and have already purchased a couple quarts of Amsoil Sever Gear 75-140. I’ve been reading over at “Bob is the oil guy” and actually found a gent who’d run this Amsoil with a TrueTrac and no issues.
I’d prefer the synthetic because I plan to run this hard, Amsoil has a reputation for great heat handling, and because I have seen some stock 8.8s having bearing issues. Still straying outside manufacturer recommendations is always a dicey proposition. Seems like I’d be able to figure out torque bias quickly driving it and screech I’d know immediately. Thoughts?
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I would consider looking into some high grade non-synthetics, though there is a good chance those may be just as slippery as the non-dinos.
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All my buddies that run helical diffs have run synthetic gear oil, and so did I in my Cobra with no noise or issue. On the Eaton website, and in the instructions for the Truetrac it says to "just run whatever your axle mfr. calls for".
I know this example is not a TrueTrac but Ford uses synthetic as a factory fill for their Torsen diff equipped Mustangs.
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Eaton's recommendations change depending which diff is in question.
From http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Automotive/AutomotiveAftermarket/Differentials/FAQforDifferentials/index.htm (http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Automotive/AutomotiveAftermarket/Differentials/FAQforDifferentials/index.htm)
"Truetrac
What kind of oil should I use? Can I use synthetic? Do I need friction additive/modifier?
A quality petroleum/mineral based oil works best in the Truetrac units. We do not recommend synthetic oil. Friction additive/modifier is not required."
It's just such a blanket statement I can't wrap my head around it. Ash, if your car runs before mine I will definitely be looking at your results with interest. FWIW here's the thread I found most helpful over at Bobistheoilguy.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1060477 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1060477)
Anyone else have opinions?
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Most everyone I know has run Royal Purple (that actually contained friction modifier), and so did I in the Cobra with no issue. That is about 10 guys in total.
I have the Amsoil 75w140 on hand, so I am going to try that first. I have little experience with it (I run it in my Yaris) but others seem to have had favorable results and it has no friction modifier in it.
If the only change is to the bias ratio by using synthetic fluid, then most won't notice a difference I would wager. That said, it may be a compelling enough reason to just run dino oil because I want as much bias ratio as possible without compromising the life of the differential.
If I hear any groaning coming from the diff I will change out the fluid. Quality dino oil is much cheaper so I guess I won't complain.
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Joel, this is just based on what I have seen and my semi-educated opinion, so take it for what it's worth... Friction modifiers and specific lube recommendations matter a whole lot more in clutch type LSDs. Truetracs have no clutches or friction material. They rely on the force exerted on a combination of helical cut cylindrical gears for torque distribution. IMO any oil that will adequately protect the surface hardness of the gear teeth will work, so try stuff until you get results you are happy with.
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Joel, this is just based on what I have seen and my semi-educated opinion, so take it for what it's worth... Friction modifiers and specific lube recommendations matter a whole lot more in clutch type LSDs. Truetracs have no clutches or friction material. They rely on the force exerted on a combination of helical cut cylindrical gears for torque distribution. IMO any oil that will adequately protect the surface hardness of the gear teeth will work, so try stuff until you get results you are happy with.
I completely agree that a clutch based lsd will have a wider range of 'adjustment' based on the oil, but the shear viscosity of the oil should be able to change the force needed to spin those gears, which will make a difference on the torque transfer "speed".
-edit- after rereading your post, i think all i'm doing is agreeing with you without providing any extra input.... so uh. nvm
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Thanks for the inputs y'all. I think I'm going to try some dino oil to get the new bearings broken in (and flush out any residual old oil I have), run it for a few hundred miles, then swap in the AMSOIL and compare.
As a side note since I have diffs on the brain... I was talking about rear end setup with a co-worker who built up all Rod Millen's race cars and he mentioned a few things I thought were interesting.
1) Apparently they used to used a rubberized grinding wheel to take off all burrs and sharp corners they could access anywhere on the teeth of both ring and pinion. They basically just avoided the flats of the teeth. It was only about a 0.005" radius (his guess) that they added but it helps fatigue life (makes sense). They just called it "race prepping" the ring and pinion.
2) He confirmed they ran the backlash a bit on the loose side to allow for growth with heat and a relatively heavy oil to allow for a little more shock cushioning.
3) They always ran the solid pinion spacers (but they were machining their own from solid so no stack up). The idea was that they didn't want a big shock load to compress the crush sleeve further than intended and lose preload.
I doubt I'm going to worry about any further adjustments since I'd have to pull ring and pinion all the way back out, but like I said, I thought it was interesting and wanted to share in case the info was useful to someone else.
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Great read. I agree that viscosity might change helical characteristics, but lubricity/dino vs synth shouldn't. Clutch type is a different story.
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Thanks for the chatter y'all. I can see light at the end of the tunnel and it has me stoked on wrenching again.
8.8 Diff Build Continued
Just a few odds and ends from the build process. Even back with the T2 rear end I'd been experimenting with cutting down the inner bushings sleeves to hold the diff a little tighter. It seemed to help with wheel hop so I'm doing it again on the new version.
Factory maz comp bushing (note the gaps at top and bottom).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build36.jpg)
I take and cut down the sleeves to help it compress against the rubber. Same idea that I posted up on the Ford front mount a few weeks ago. Band saw doing it's thing (angle grinder works fine too and I used that for cleanup). I paint the raw edges too.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build37.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build38.jpg)
Decking off the tips of the "crown washers" so I have a bit more surface area for compression.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build39.jpg)
End up with the leftover rubber tips seeing about an 1/8" of compression (mind the gap).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build40.jpg)
The other thing this helps with is raising up the crown washers to improve CV boot clearance. I like this method enough that I'm planning to add it to the 8.8 install instructions as the official recommendation. I may need to take a bit more off the top but the first pass at a fit check looks good.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build46.jpg)
While I was thinking about it I grabbed a better picture of the speed sensor I cut off to turn into a plug.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build41.jpg)
I also followed through on the install of the stub axle spacer using bearing grease to locate the spacer. Void and spacer:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build42.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build43.jpg)
Access cap, circ clip and fit check of the hole pattern (this red diff was one of the first ones I ever cut so it took some very minor adjusting to incorporate fitment improvements that are now standard).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build44.jpg)
RTV-ed, buttoned up, torqued, and ready for install.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC8.8Build45.jpg)
With the yokes I'm running at both ends it looks like I want a DS 33 7/8" between 1350 U-joint centers. I'm going to wait for that to get here before I clearance my subframe (needed to run the big u-joints, most n/a folks should be fine with 1310s).
In the meantime, there's a bigger project afoot. :halo: I spent way too long planning this design and playing with it in CAD. Finally started cutting bits last night.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers1.jpg)
-Joel
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Awwwwwwwww snap! Joel's going hog-wild with headers!
Excited to see where this goes :)
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Awwwwwwwww snap! Joel's going hog-wild with headers!
Excited to see where this goes :)
Pretty much. Hell, it was what? 8+ months ago when I first called to pick your brain on this? Doing this a little different than most.
I've been referring to this to friends as a "paint by numbers" headers build since I'm working direct from a spreadsheet. I'm 100% sure you could do this faster, but if I was going to do this, I at least wanted to make it as good as I was able to justify the effort.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers3.jpg)
There's a few radii bigger than normal headers in my design... Daddy's little helper.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers4.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers5.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers6.jpg)
First time using a tube shrinker/stretcher. Works well for getting that last bit of perfect alignment since all my bends are about 0.030" in the bent section vs the straights. Scrap aluminum is just a striking point up top.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers7.jpg)
For comparison... Taper at the top
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers8.jpg)
vs taper at the bottom
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers9.jpg)
Also in a tight bend, compare the material thicknesses at the top of the bend vs the bottom. 2" CLR bends at about twice as noticable as 3" CLR bends.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers10.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers11.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers12.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers13.jpg)
These merges make me smile every time I look in the end.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers14.jpg)
-Joel
PS Note to self, keep extra band saw blades on hand. It was super late and my spare cheap backup blade wasn't doing anything but get dull on stainless, so I kept cutting on this guy WAY longer than I should have. The difference the next day with a new blade was stupid.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers2.jpg)
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(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers14.jpg)
Hnnnnnnnnnggggggg, pants just got tight. Excellent lookin' stuff.
Unrelated: left you a VM on your cell today ~ when you get a chance, hit me back!
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can you post a picture of the tubing stretcher without the pipe...i can't visualize what happening there.
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can you post a picture of the tubing stretcher without the pipe...i can't visualize what happening there.
No problem. It's just a cast steel cone that you can hammer pipe onto (or into) and get a very minor taper. Use the outside to stretch. Use the inside to shrink. Props to Anthony (v8-rx7) for turning me onto the tool.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers15.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers16.jpg)
Only problem I found is that when I have large angles to the bends there's really nothing to hammer (picture trying to stretch one end of a 90 deg bend, there's just nothing to strike since the end isn't in line). You can kind of do a two handed tomahawk blow just grasping the bend by hand and swinging the bend downward but it most just gets it closer to round and won't really stretch. I found just squishing with the vice was easier to take out a bit of oval if I had any...
If anyone else has used these and knows a better technique let me know (I'm making this up as I go). That said, for what I'm doing it seems to do a decent job.
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I want one...where did you get it?
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If anyone else has used these and knows a better technique let me know (I'm making this up as I go)
giant magnets.
sorry, i've used a homemade one of these on aluminum before. and never had a good idea on that part.
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I want one...where did you get it?
Lisle 32000. Been a while, so I can't remember where I picked it up. Looks like the usual suspects have it though...
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-32000 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-32000)
http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-32000-Pipe-End-Shaper/dp/B0002STSO4 (http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-32000-Pipe-End-Shaper/dp/B0002STSO4)
Works on 1.5 to 3.5 tubing
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thanks!
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Just a few progress shots from over the weekend.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers17.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers18.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers19.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers21.jpg)
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Oooooooh weeeeee.
Lookin good! :cheers:
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That's good progress!!
I have a pretty good local coating hook up if you want to get them thermal coated Joel.
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That dryer is gonna sound sweet with those pipes. Clothes will dry much quicker too! Looking great Joel!!
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Nice Charlie,
Thanks all,
I'm relatively excited by the design, but damn I hope they work well given all the effort that's going into these.
Header Design Notes
A couple key differences and the though process why I didn't just by JTR 1 7/8 (assuming I could have talked Mike into making me a set):
-All stainless steel, including flanges. Flanges came from Extreme Perfomance Sandcars (http://stores.ebay.com/Extreme-Performance-Sandcars?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 (http://stores.ebay.com/Extreme-Performance-Sandcars?_trksid=p2047675.l2563) or (909)887-8000) and are 1/2" thick but also use a design tucked quite tight to the bolt pattern. All bends came from Performance Tube Bending (www.performancetubebending.com (http://www.performancetubebending.com)) which had by far the best prices I found anywhere and also happened to be relatively local; they're just up the street from Jordan Innovations.
-Big bends. 7 of the 8 primaries use 3" CLR bends coming off the headers instead of the more typical 2 or 2.5 CLR bends. The big bends in the body are 6" CLR, nested against 4" CLR. The whole thing was designed in CAD so tangencies are very good (some of the JTR joints are 5+ degrees off).
-True equal length headers looked about impossible to package without massive body cutting but I'm at least closer than other readily available options in terms of getting both the length I want and lengths as close to each other as possible. David Vizard's point that it's "more important to have lengths correct than to have lengths equal but wrong" makes a lot of sense to me.
-Merges came from Burns Stainless and ran about $400 each (more than my last headers did!). I justified the expense because Burns runs analysis software with every merge order to spit out an "optomized" header design. That was a helpful validation of the research I'd been doing. Plus it's fun with Jack Burns (legend) turns out to be this kindly grandfatherly figure who's makes googley eyes at my 3YO daughter and makes her giggle.
-Probably the biggest single debate I had was whether to run with Burns recommendation on primary sizing. I finallly did but I struggled since pipes too big is at least as bad--if not worse than--pipes too small... I was curious it anyone would spot it in the pictures but in case you didn't, these headers o' mine are 1.875 -> 2.0" stepped headers. Engine is a 429 ci but they're still massive compared to what I'm used to.
-Bonus good news. Passenger looks like it will install from below (something I was concerned about, having no real way to check that in advance). I have a few minor rubbing points but they're mightly close to fitting how I want and I think I can adjust what I have to work. Driver I haven't checked yet but I knew I'd be clearancing floorboards to keep ground clearance already so I'm less worried about that.
Anyways, that's the philosophy. Brismo7 stopped by and took a mug shot for me... Gives a better idea of scale.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers22.jpg)
What do you think? Too much or just right for a 429? I'm more or less committed at this point.
-Joel
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PS... The steps are staggered to occur at specific lengths too!
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers20.jpg)
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I figured that's why you bought the pipe expander - that last pic sure looked like a step lol. Awesome man.
"right length" and "right size" have a lot to do with each other, so if that's what the dudes say, that's what I'd try.
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If it's straight to straight there shouldn't be any expanding required.
Effectivley, where I was going for a step, I wanted it to be a step. Where I was going for a smooth transition between pipe and bend (which shrinks a bit) that's where I used the expander/shrinker a great deal. The first stage of 1 7/8" is a little big for my exhaust port size, but I decided to give up a bit there to give myself options if I ever decide to jump into a more serious set of heads down the road.
By the way, there are a great many voices on the internet with opinions about stepped headers or not. If you're feeling geeky, I found the following article to be pretty influencial on my thinking and clearly written by more than your average armchair quarterback:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm (http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm)
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They look very cool! I have 1 7/8 JTR's on mine and I did a little bit of work on the d/s floor to have better clearance. When I say work I don't mean smashing with a hammer. I cut the floor, reshaped and welded in a new panel. P/s I did the reshape for clearance and the metalwork is very smooth. Overall I wish I had just run the 1 3/4 headers but I ended up with 1 7/8 due to a shipping glitch from Sanderson and figured wtf. I definitely dont need the added size with my stock engine but for a bone stock ls2 it does make pretty good numbers at 385/392. Cant wait to see what you end up with Joel. Better call and get some Hoosiers on the way!
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I noticed the RideBMX poster on the wall. Do you ride?
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... I did a little bit of work on the d/s floor to have better clearance. When I say work I don't mean smashing with a hammer. I cut the floor, reshaped and welded in a new panel. P/s I did the reshape for clearance and the metalwork is very smooth.
About that... I smashed the corner of my floorboards with a mini sledge last night. :( I'm telling myself I'll weld in a panel some day since I'm pushing to get it back alive as quickly as I can now. That really means I'm hoping once it's out of sight out of mind I won't care anymore. Now that I know you've done it you're going to tempt me to pull the carpet back out and do it right... Thanks Chaz :punch: ;)
I noticed the RideBMX poster on the wall. Do you ride?
That poster's pretty old but I used to ride quite a bit (street and dirt mostly). I was never really stellar but I could bunny hop up on picnic tables and 360 at will. I still have the BMX hanging on the wall and I break it out for kicks once in a blue moon. I recently had a kid call it "old school", I'm assuming because it's not a cassete drive with the tiny chain ring (otherwise I don't see much difference). I'm only 34 but it still made me feel old.
Had some great memories on that bike. Hell, have a replaced right ACL because of it. It was a sad day when I finally let the Ride subscription expire... These days I spend more time on a Santa Cruz Nomad.
You?
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^^^ Hey, you guys can make out on your own time, this thread's about getting this rad FC back together and terrorizing the streets. :yay:
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Lol at Jeff. FWIW, this thread's becoming more and more about how priorities shift as you get older (hence why the car hasn't gotten done and why I'm becoming more of a perfectionist with what I'm slowly building).
One of my favorite Jimlab quotes... "When I was young my dream was to eat candy all day, every day. Now that I'm grown and can afford all the candy I can eat, what do I do? Eat salad and count calories... Priorities change."
That said, my 3YO recently announced "Daddy, I really want your white car to drive again" so maybe I have some stree... I mean track, TRACK! terrorizing still to do. With age, get a cage right? FWIW I smile just thinking about taking this to SevenStock for race-track ride alongs. It was an eye opener for a few rotarded friends before and now it should be cranked up to 11.
Not sure I'll have it shaken down for the ride along part, but this year's SevenStock on Nov 9th is definitely my goal. I'm heading home to work on some headers and ship a few parts.
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At least Nov 9 is a common goal. I can't wait to beat the snot out of my car, and I can't wait to see yours running again too!
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If my car makes it to SEMA, we'll bring it back to Sevenstock for sure.
#dudeswithgoals
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Last night's header progress:
Driver's side getting close.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers23.jpg)
Pardon the crappy pic, but it was taken in the wee hours and the only point is that the two big sections finally fit nicely to each other... The dog leg at the lower end pushes the merge toward the trans to minimize floorboard clearancing while giving me the outlet angle I wanted. Getting top and bottom to fit took some effort as I had one tube where I screwed up my "paint by numbers" build scheme and it threw me off for a while.
Some in car pictures.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers24.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers25.jpg)
Broke and reangled the pieces on the number 8 runner. It was touch bell-housing previously. It's landing nice now and actually has a little better firewall clearance than my 1 3/4 JTRs ever did.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers26.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers27.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers28.jpg)
The money shot:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers29.jpg)
Looks like these hang maybe 1" below the frame rails but given the big collectors I really can't get them much higher. Now I just need to get them all welded up without it moving anywhere. There's not a lot of margin with these.
Passenger side:
-3/8" to the starter (going to have to insulate it)
-3/8" subframe
-3/8" to the firewall
-3/8" to the floorboards (after clearancing a hump)
Driver side:
-3/8" to the Ronin pedestal
-3/8" to the steering rack hardware at the slip connection
-3/8" to the subframe
-3/8" to the oil filter
Wait for it:
-3/8" to the floorboards? Nope still touching the floorboards (but it'll be 3/8" clear by the time I'm done!)
Anthony's going to help me welding up the primaries this weekend. We also should have the FD 8.8 First Article done. We live about an hour apart these days so we try to do as much as we can when meeting up for work sessions.
Anyone have hot tips about welding the flanges? I'm thinking that's probably my single biggest risk of this moving on me when locking it down. If I tack the flanges in car I'll have to use my little 110v MIG, but maybe I can get a roll of stainless wire.
-Joel
@MrDudeWithGoals: What'd you get done last night? :poke:
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... I did a little bit of work on the d/s floor to have better clearance. When I say work I don't mean smashing with a hammer. I cut the floor, reshaped and welded in a new panel. P/s I did the reshape for clearance and the metalwork is very smooth.
About that... I smashed the corner of my floorboards with a mini sledge last night. :( I'm telling myself I'll weld in a panel some day since I'm pushing to get it back alive as quickly as I can now. That really means I'm hoping once it's out of sight out of mind I won't care anymore. Now that I know you've done it you're going to tempt me to pull the carpet back out and do it right... Thanks Chaz :punch: ;)
I noticed the RideBMX poster on the wall. Do you ride?
That poster's pretty old but I used to ride quite a bit (street and dirt mostly). I was never really stellar but I could bunny hop up on picnic tables and 360 at will. I still have the BMX hanging on the wall and I break it out for kicks once in a blue moon. I recently had a kid call it "old school", I'm assuming because it's not a cassete drive with the tiny chain ring (otherwise I don't see much difference). I'm only 34 but it still made me feel old.
Had some great memories on that bike. Hell, have a replaced right ACL because of it. It was a sad day when I finally let the Ride subscription expire... These days I spend more time on a Santa Cruz Nomad.
You?
I think I only got fancy because the interior was out of the car and the floor was uncoated at that time!
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Those look and fit great Joel, I can wait to see them finished! Might this be a future Ronin project for production?
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That poster's pretty old but I used to ride quite a bit (street and dirt mostly). I was never really stellar but I could bunny hop up on picnic tables and 360 at will. I still have the BMX hanging on the wall and I break it out for kicks once in a blue moon. I recently had a kid call it "old school", I'm assuming because it's not a cassete drive with the tiny chain ring (otherwise I don't see much difference). I'm only 34 but it still made me feel old.
Had some great memories on that bike. Hell, have a replaced right ACL because of it. It was a sad day when I finally let the Ride subscription expire... These days I spend more time on a Santa Cruz Nomad.
You?
Yes, I have been racing since I was 11. Stopped for a couple years and started racing nationally again this year. In 2007 I was National #2 in class.
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Weekend progress (well that and the FD 8.8 stuff I posted).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers30.jpg)
BTW there are a couple spots in the above where a small degree change 1 7/8" bend nests into the 2" step up which I intentionally overlapped to make assembly easier. It looks like kinked but it's not (#1 and #2 primaries mostly)
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Those look great. I cant wait to see them together.
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Great work! This thing is going to be perfect.
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I am completely blown away by the awesome write-up and pics in this thread! It has since become the
go-to thread for my current build that is happening back home in Virginia while I am stationed out here @ Camp Arifjan! T
hanks soooooo much for giving me something to read, and look at while I'm out here.
I Know there was a reason why I sent my wiring harness to you guys!!!!
Thanks again!
Geoff Morgan
"Ronin order #90" :)
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I have a question on your over the radiator intake. Do you think you can still put in an AC system with that style of intake or is that now a no go? It looks like the intake takes up room where the condenser would need to go.
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AC is no problem. I've run it with that before. The stock ac condensor core lands just below the intake.
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Good news: been putting in a ton of wrench time to get this thing back up and running.
Bad news: I'm way way behind on pictures. Figured I'd get a few up to try to close down a few things.
Headers almost done
Didn't have a good way to tack these in car so I ended up scribing the locations as best I could and having them tacked with silicon bronze at work.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers31.jpg)
One side landed well the other was too high and into the floor boards. I decided to risk yanking on the collector areas a bit with this bolted to the block to see if I could just deform the tack at all. Low and behold with the twist load I was putting at the flange, suddenly all the tacks broke. That was good news because the last couple stainless tacks I'd done had to be cut to get them free.
Once I figure out I could do that I just ran back and forth a few time to 65imp's one evening. On my third try (too high, too low, a little to high but close), yanking on the header broke only a couple tacks and left me in feeling like Goldilocks. One last round of tacks for the one's I broke, one last fit check and they were all good. PITA but it worked out.
I have these welded inside and out per Burn's stainless recommendations. Inside is 308 stainless filler, outside is all silicon bronze (almost like braising) just to keep it still. Insides were done in 8 steps ~45 deg each to keep the heat down yet hopefully uniform. We'd do 45 degrees for all 8 primaries before getting back to the first one. Same co-worker who'd done my first pass at tacking (I did all the others myself) helped me again.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers32.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers33.jpg)
All of this was done to avoid warpage as stainless has a nasty reputation for moving while welding. I figured it made sense do the outside of each junction second so the heat would have a chance at relaxing the flanges into position. As such, I tore the heads off my coffee table (see http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg181595#msg181595. (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1274.msg181595#msg181595.) post 224 if you missed it) to give myself a nice big flat heat sink to bolt too. I still had to deck down a few spots where the weld was proud (hand filled)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers37.jpg)
Then we did the outsides.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers34.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers35.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/JP_Headers36.jpg)
Flanges are within about 0.020 from flat unconstrained and pull down nice and tight with hardware. Still need 02 bungs and v-band flanges but they're just about done.
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Awesome! Yeah inside out is best, and your strategy for avoiding warp is solid (I just tack 'em all over the place and start filling between the tacks).
Super pumped to see these in the car, and thanks for stopping by the other night!
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Jeff, yes, we started with about 4 healthy tacks before the 45 degree welding started. Your car's pretty wicked and I was glad we were finally able to meet up.
Fast 102 vs. Hood
With the headers basically done and the engine bolted in I'd started to finalize bits on the topside of the engine. If you've been following the thread you know I'm running a Fast LSXR 102 intake manifold. What I have yet to really admit is that this intake manifold just didn't fit. My life would have been so much easier with a 90/90 setup.... Damn, but when you try to do something max effort that's sometimes what you run into. I'd already cut and smoothed my firewall, redone my fuel line cross over, decked a chamfer into of my throttle body and I was STILL contacting the Ronin reverse cowl hood I wanted to run. Not bad, maybe 3/8" or so but I was already down as close to my steering rack as I dared and it just wasn't clearing hood.
The other thing I hadn't admitted is that my FAST 102 came off this guy's personal LS454.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Fast102owner.jpg)
It'd been on a dyno a few times but was otherwise brand new. Anyone know him? Had one heck of an entertaining lunch having him tell stories and break down his thoughts on engine theory.
With all the hood fitting I'd been doing I'd already scratched the heck out of the paint on the FAST's lettering (guess what turned out to be the point of minimum contact on the manifold). Frankly I wasn't a big fan of the garish raised letters anyways so I decided to shave them down a bit. I didn't go all the way flush because I'd lose the texture in the area around the sanding and I didn't feel like smoothing the whole damn thing. It's a subtle change that unless you're in the know, most folks will probably never spot, but I gained almost an 1/8" where it counted and I think it looks nice.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Fast102shave1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Fast102shave2.jpg)
So that meant I'd done basically all I could on the engine bay side of the fitment and I still needed to address the hood. Ronin had a QC reject hood sitting on the corner of our composites shop for a while now that I decided to make functional for myself about a year ago. The hood had had the upper and lower halves glued in a rush job before they were sufficiently dry and had warped badly (just about all over) as it cured. That said, since I was going to cut out the bottom to make my intake tract work anyways I decided to see if I could salvage it.
Note: this is NOT a production quality Ronin hood so I don't want to freak anyone out with the following pictures but it was something I'd been starring at forever trying to figure out how to solve.
Previously I'd started with a rough pass in bondo just to get the thing smoothed out. It's sat like this in my rafters for more than a year.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RoninHoodClearance1.jpg)
The point of contact was just to driver side about at the rear of the center spike detail. Effectively right in the middle of the big span in the middle of the hood. Cutting out the edges of this span just seemed impractical and body work/re-glassing major shapes like that takes forever. As such I finally convinced myself I needed to make a power bulge. I only needed about 3/8" but the contact just wasn't acceptable and I wasn't ready give up on the FAST.
I did a bunch of looking online and just about convinced myself that the MG RV8 had the best bulge I could hope to find.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/MG_RV8.JPG)
There's even a company in the UK that sells stand alone bulges in fiberglass. http://www.honeybournemouldings.co.uk/fibreglasspowerbulges.htm (http://www.honeybournemouldings.co.uk/fibreglasspowerbulges.htm)
(http://www.honeybournemouldings.co.uk/august2011/powerbulge6.jpg)
At the end of the day I decided I didn't want to pay international shipping for something that was still bigger than I needed and I wasn't convinced was really going to look right anyway. It would mean I effectively would have a reverse cowl with a power bulge right behind it. You know you're kinda in uncharted water when you find yourself wondering if you can take a splash mold of your BBQ cover to have a fiberglass bulge to start from. Not good. :-[
Instead I said screw it and decided to just make my own. After a little bit of research to make sure my resin wouldn't attack foam I decided to make the like the Lithuanians and just go for it. http://www.ridelust.com/a-lithuanian-a-destroyed-mercedes-cl-and-some-polyurethane-foam/ (http://www.ridelust.com/a-lithuanian-a-destroyed-mercedes-cl-and-some-polyurethane-foam/)
Roughed out shaped:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RoninHoodClearance2.jpg)
Next day (holy hell this stuff expands):
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RoninHoodClearance3.jpg)
Started carving on it and found it why it'd expanded so much. This was the BEST part of the surface internally.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RoninHoodClearance4.jpg)
The worst parts had holes that were an inch across and uncured goo in the middle (24 hours out on what should have been workable in an couple hours).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RoninHoodClearance5.jpg)
So basically I failed miserably... Sanded all the crap back off and was back where I started. Not everything goes as planned and to be honest I wasn't that thrilled with a bulge to begin with. :( At this point I had to make a call, I really wanted to run a Ronin hood (or at least a hood that looked like a Ronin hood even if I'd cheated it). I'm starring at this thing from all angles and debating how much cutting I'm going to have to do and it's just kind of a sucky afternoon. The spot I need to raise is right in the middle of a huge curved expanse. And then it hits, me...
The spot I need to raise in the middle of a huge CURVED expanse. If I cut the expanse apart I can wedge the middle apart slightly and it SHOULD raise the expanse just like I was wedging a bigger capstone in a curved stone bridge. After about a five minute debate and a sanity check with the wife I break out the angle grinder and cut the entire center area of the hood from behind the vent to where the ribs start in back. If this doesn't work I'm literally throwing this hood away and/or selling my fancy pants FAST 102.
Ram in some shims on the gap I just cut and low and behold I gain a 1/2". Glass it back over on top, kitty hair and more glass on the bottom and presto chango, I have a hood that clears.
If you look closely you can see the cut line under the glass.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RoninHoodClearance6.jpg)
I left it in the sun for a few days to let it heat cycle and work out any internal stresses and it still clears by 3/16" or so. Still need some more body work to make the curves perfect, but I was stoked that I finally figured it out.
-Joel
PS Ronin's hood should clear all factory intake manifolds as well as Fast 90s and 92s. It's only with the 102 you have to watch out. I can't tell you whether it'd clear with a factory hood but it'd be damn close.
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A Tony Mamo part in your car? That's worth at least 50hp. I see him a couple times a year and chat, helped him with his wife's Vette earlier this year haha, a legit cool dude.
As I was reading your post, I was thinking the bulge was terrible - so glad you figured it out. That looks awesome.
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A Tony Mamo part in your car? That's worth at least 50hp. I see him a couple times a year and chat, helped him with his wife's Vette earlier this year haha, a legit cool dude.
I'm hoping for 15-20 hp but yeah really nice guy. Other gents typically make 515 on my engine and heads but if I'm honest I'm really hoping to crack 550 even with a smallish cam due to the extra effort on headers and intake.
As I was reading your post, I was thinking the bulge was terrible - so glad you figured it out. That looks awesome.
When you struggle with something design wise for that long and then the epiphany strikes, it's a pretty good moment. I'm hoping you get the same on some blower packaging that'll actually let you clear a hood. Even with a 3rd hood pin you don't have a lot of hood structure left for a car intended for high speed road racing. The rat rod cut is ok, but it'd just be so much better if you could make it fit.
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You are gonna need more brakes if you end up with 550 whp! That is a bunch of weight to haul down on track.
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That's when I hit up my buddy Charlie for some brake duct design right?
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Nice work Joel. Mamo's CTS-v is pretty bad ass. He does a bunch of stuff for guys over on the V forums.
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Brackets and Stuff
Just a few random bits that didn't have a home anywhere.
A while back I picked up a little belt drive bench top lathe (1950s technology baby). That let me rebuild the uprights on my battery tie down to match the Odyssey PC925 I'll be running now. The tie down was made for a full size Optima, I'd already made an adapter once to work with an Odyssey PC680, this time changing out the uprights seemed like the cleanest thing to do.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/BatteryHoldDown1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/BatteryHoldDown2.jpg)
The FAST 102 has no provisions to mount the Evap purge solenoid (and I decided a charcoal canister was a good idea) so I moded the stock bracket to work. Stupid things like this take forever.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EvapPurge1.jpg)
Where the tips are market in blue used to just be an L shape. I'd already bent these up and ground the paint off for welding.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EvapPurge2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EvapPurge3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EvapPurge4.jpg)
Since that meant I was running several lines across my firewall I wanted to tuck those as tight as I could. Flattened out a stack of not needed bends in the lines and made a few brackets stealing the isolating bits from my fuel hardline project leftovers.
Old and busted, vs the new hotness. Kinda fun figuring out how to bend these.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HardlineBracket1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HardlineBracket2.jpg)
Last but not least, I'm running the MAP sensor in the front position on the FAST. The hardware comes with a little bolt that doesn't match the form factor of the sensor at all. Yep, one more little clip. There's 4 bends in this thing and it's only an inch and half long.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/MapBracket1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/MapBracket2.jpg)
Happy Halloween y'all,
Joel
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Driveline and 8.8 is fully together
I decided to take the hard road to do 1350 u joints and a 3.5 DS just to help Ronin customers better know what they're in for with bigger hp combos. The Driveshaft Shop tells me this setup holds on 1000 whp camaros consistently and that's a heavier car. They estimate ~1200 whp potential in an RX7.
The subframe will require clearancing for the big U-joints (1310 makes your life much easier if you're 500 whp or less and/or don't really drag race). Here's what the subframe looks like opened up (cut spot welds with a cutter and sliced perimeter open with an angle grinder).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance1.jpg)
The reinforcement inside is a bent section that forms an upturned L on one side and a upturned U on the other. Note the cut is strongly offset to the passenger side (most of these pictures are from the forward side of the subframe). You need to cut down from near the tie rod end to about 1/4" above the pinch weld. I used a 4 3/4" lid to mark the curves on both sides. I also ended up taking mine it all the way down the the pinch weld all the way across but it turned out to be a more than I needed.
We sliced and then hammered the bits inward.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance2.jpg)
65imp went a little nuts with my 110v mig, but since it was glowing hot anyways he just kept filling because it was getting good pentration so why not waste a little wire. Patch panel ready to go in.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance3.jpg)
Patched and plug welded:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance4.jpg)
Ground smooth for better fatigue resistance. Probably not required but better safe than sorry. It's purdy this way.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance5.jpg)
Even with it welded like crazy in the inside I decided to reinforce the bottom side too. Bending stiffness is the 3rd power of height (IE a box beam of 1/2 the height has only 1/8 the bending stiffness) so extra seemed like a good idea.
65imp again doing work... (Much love to the Ronin crew, didn't get any pictures of Brismo but he busted tail too).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance5b.jpeg)
First time my new tig's been used. V8-rx7 stopped by so he burned in the strap gussets I'd made earlier all quick like for me (and thanks to his dad Ed too since he was the one who had to be up early despite Anthony knocking this out).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance6.jpg)
Note, just recently we had our first 8.8 failure. Charlie (Bowtie7) who's had this up and running longer than anyone tore off the two ears on his stock subframe link. He wasn't doing anything crazy when it let go so we're assuming it was a fatigue failure, but we're still planning to make a batch of gussets for existing 8.8 users regardless since our mount does give the pinion a bit more leverage upward. (We'll have more on this in the next few weeks.) Here's what the gussets should look like for folks.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance7.jpg)
Stock vent tube is a snug fit to the cradle but works fine.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance8.jpg)
Fuel lines clear fine too.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance9.jpg)
Tried to get a size comparison as a 3.5" DS is a big stick. Pretty sure my head is normal size but probably should have grabbed a dollar bill or something. Note the low profile weights. Good stuff.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance10.jpg)
Checking pinion angle. Mine wanted about an 1/8" rise so I used the factory part under the nose instead of the supplied reinforced rubber washers.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance11.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance12.jpg)
Plenty of clearance. Thanks to the folks at the DSS for the shaft. FWIW I had several folks quote this for me and DSS was the clear winner. Point of reference for those doing future shopping.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance13.jpg)
Lastly, I am using the GKN CV outers so that means I needed to replace the oil seal as well. Note if you've never pulled the knuckle on an FC the only trick is that the metal sleeves slide (barely) inside the aluminum structure. I typically have to pull them back a bit before they'll let the knuckle come free. Brake bracket you can leave connected, just pull the middle part of the caliper off and tie it to your shock with the fluid line still intact.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DSClearance14.jpg)
Driveline is fully assembled for the first time in about a year. Now I have to tackle the exhaust.
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For reference, what length drive shaft did you go with since your using all Ronin parts?
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For reference, what length drive shaft did you go with since your using all Ronin parts?
Mine worked out to be 33 7/8" as measured center to center on the U-joints. That just clears the two piece yoke in the retracted position. However, this could change for others depending on what yokes and/or flanges they use. DSS only takes about a week and half to make a shaft so the most reliable method is always going to be to measure yourself.
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DSS only takes about a week and half to make a shaft so the most reliable method is always going to be to measure yourself.
To echo Joel... always measure the distance yourself just to be safe. If the shaft is slightly too long, you won't be able to get it in with the 2 piece front yoke. Mine has about 1/4" clearance to get in and out.
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Surge Tank and PCV catch can
I never liked the fact that my old radiator setup didn't automatically purge itself of bubbles so I've been working on a surge tank (aka expansion tank) using the tried and true Howe expansion tank. I went direct to Howe so I could orient it how I wanted and use a little nicer fittings but it's the same basic idea that a lot of folks have run.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion1.jpg)
That said, once this had a bracket welded it in, there was not way to tighten or loosen the 90 degree fitting at the bottom (it couldn't spin a 360 without contact.) At the same time I was trying to figure out how best to package a trick little catch can I'm planning for my PCV line since I don't really want to be sending oil back into my intake manifold.
Quick side note on the PCV catch can. I did quite a bit of looking before I picked what I did. The catch can itself is a product of research and experimentation coming from some corvette guys. This was the post that really got me thinking.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-tech/1899749-catch-can-experiments-continue.html (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-tech/1899749-catch-can-experiments-continue.html)
Key post from the link:
"Regarding the filters I am currently using:
The first one in-line with the PCV-to-intake hose is the
Watts 504-02DH (a particulate filter that is a bit more "open" when compared to the F501 coalescing filter). This is followed by the Watts F501-02DHX67 (coalescing filter that includes a mounting bracket).
I swapped the zinc body of the F504 with my extended length aluminum housing, since much of the non-aerosol liquids will be trapped there. Keep in mind that if I had room for only one filter, it would be the F501 coalescing assembly. This is what I ran for 6000 miles and from what I can see in the return hose, only a small amount of oil made its way through. But this is why I'm trying out the combo - so far (1000 miles), so good - no oil in the hose.
I am going to start testing a new design (when I get back to work, where there are a few environmental chambers) soon, It will include a Watts F501, but will have a newly designed top piece and body. More info will follow. I can PM you with more info as the testing progresses."
After all that I figure I could either just run two filters in line (exactly as the gent recommended) or I could order from him and support a small vendor doing interesting stuff. I went with the later.
Couple good reads:
http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/PCV%20Line%20Oil%20Removal%20102.pdf (http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/PCV%20Line%20Oil%20Removal%20102.pdf)
http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/Air_Oil%20SeparationBeyondBasics.pdf (http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/Air_Oil%20SeparationBeyondBasics.pdf)
I did the high efficiency version with the glass reservoir (just something you don't normally see under the hood).
http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/High%20Efficiency%20Air.htm (http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/High%20Efficiency%20Air.htm)
The problem was that I didn't have a good place to put that. I did go back to power steering (going to be trying out some Turn one goodies) so the driver's head is taken. I wasn't that excited about more lines bridging between block and engine compartment walls. Between that and the fact I didn't really like how my expansion tank was lining up (the line to radiator ran uphill even though I'd mounted that as high as I could), I decided to get a little creative.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion2.jpg)
I think most of us have taken a perfectly good part and cut it up at some point so it's nothing new but still... Making this change was the straw that broke the camel's back for trying to finish my car for SevenStock.
Recapped tank, added mount point for PCV, tapped filter for m6 hardware (it came with some tiny stuff), moved input npt thread to the side (which will let my line flow downhill as God intended).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion4.jpg)
That little bonus bracket to the left is there as insurance to be sure the glass jar can't vibrate loose and drop off. Here it is in position.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion5.jpg)
Backside:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion6.jpg)
To service this I'll just undo the two fittings closest to the radiator cap and pick up vertically. I should have enough flex in the lines to be able to unscrew and dump. I intentionally oriented my tank this way so that the overflow line would exit toward the block and route underneath.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion3.jpg)
What do you think, leave it raw or powdercoat it black? I'm thinking the later as it should offset the powersteering on the other side.
Added bonus: I have only half the weight of the fluid up high on my block. I didn't see a reason I would need any real volume up there.
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By the way, I'm finding that different manufacturer's use substantially different anodizing colors. I'm out to re-order some stuff in XRP just so it'll match my fuel setup. :( I just figured if this thing is going to make appearances at shows and the like I should make it as good as I can.
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That's a beefy setup! Great read.
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By the way, I'm finding that different manufacturer's use substantially different anodizing colors. I'm out to re-order some stuff in XRP just so it'll match my fuel setup. :( I just figured if this thing is going to make appearances at shows and the like I should make it as good as I can.
Yes I hate that everyone's blue is different.
Always go black or strip anodizing with easy off :)
Great work on the expansion tank/catch can. I would go black with it. It will start to oxidize over time, then you'll be stuck in a rut of polishing it to keep it looking good.
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id coat the tank.
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I think you're right that it'll stay nicer, longer with some powder on top. Just curious, for folks with billet parts that see real winter do you do anything to protect those? I don't know that I'd want to try powdering my NW throttle body and I at least have the advantage that SoCal makes corrosion a bit less of a concern.
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I take a red scotchbrite to all my billet stuff to make it brushed. Easy to touch up later.
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I take a red scotchbrite to all my billet stuff to make it brushed. Easy to touch up later.
Good call.
If you can pull it apart, maybe black anodize it :)
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Looks great! I personally really like wrinkle black powder coat.
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Getting close now... Car's made noise a few times (and damn it's loud). Figured I should post a couple pictures of the expansion tank and overflow as I have those 99% done.
I ended upon going with black gloss powder since I already had a few wrinkle finish details elsewhere and I wanted the contrast.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion6b.jpg)
One annoying thing about the Howe tank that everyone runs is that you can't easily use a 90 deg npt to hose barb fitting. The tip of the fitting will crash into the body and you try to turn it and you can't quite get it tight. Samberg an everyone else provides a 90 deg npt to npt brass fitting and a separate npt to barb. My solution, since I'm trying to have fittings match: break out the 1/4" tube bender and get clever with a vise.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion7.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion8.jpg)
And here it is all installed.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion9.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion10.jpg)
I couldn't find an off the shelf overflow tank I liked so I ended up making my own you can see it peaking out in the above.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Overflow1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Overflow2.jpg)
Cap w/ bung are welded from the inside and came from Summit. Pretty happy with my Invertig 221, but since I wanted this to be pretty Anthony (v8-rx7) burned it together for me. Thanks amigo! You do awesome stuff.
Not shown are two 1/8" npt bungs on the side facing radiator. The radiator cap overflow feeds/draws from the bottom. If it fills the tank (~1.5 quarts) it'll puke from the fitting at the top.
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Public Service Notice: when wrenching under your car with a cold be careful when you sneeze least you headbutt your under carriage.
Owwwwww!
That's all.
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Looks good!
When do you expect that she'll be road ready?
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There's an informal bring your toys to work day on the 31st (Bbq & beer after work) . Even if I show up sans hood, that's my new goal.
Left: finish exhaust (about six seams and hanger needed), wire fan, fill coolant system, flash ecu for proper injectors, button up wiring at the main fuse box (related to fan wiring).
I'm dang close.
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Coil Pack Mounting
This one’s a detail I like it a lot. Some time back I scratch built a set of custom coil pack brackets. Just the fact that I’ve already posted a variety of completed engine pictures and no one has yet picked up on them makes me smile, because they just look that “right” in place…
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket1.jpg)
The idea started with the discovery that the truck coil packs with heat sinks appear to produce a notably better spark event. I got turned onto the idea after seeing some discussion online and doing a little digging which lead me to the following:
LS2_Yukon_ign_coil_test.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1WH0OExQyA#)
The issue is that the truck coil brackets locate the coil significantly up the valve covers such that you can’t re-use your LS1 wires. I’d already thrown down to for a set of Accel’s ceramic armored plug wires so I wanted to be able to re-use those. Hence, decided to make my own mounting to put the coils where I wanted them.
However, since I was doing this anyways I decided to see if I could make these really trick and use the bracket to hide all my wiring for the coils and injectors. I’d run fuel rail covers before to hid that stuff, but that wasn’t an option with aftermarket rails.
Unlike mefarri, I prefer paper to wood for my mockups, so I started with some paper dolls and refined a few rounds of CAD.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket2.jpg)
Played with a couple versions of what the lower edges might look like since I knew the valve covers would poke out and I wanted this to be clean looking. At the end of the day I choose a pretty simple form factor from bottom corner to bottom corner of each coil.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket3.jpg)
A while back I posted up that I’d shaved a bung off my driver side valve cover.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean5.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/blastclean6.jpg)
Well, now you know the reason why. That’s what made my coil pack and wire line up and land in the most logical position. :yay:
Went ahead and had the cad file cut in 5052 Alum (better for bending). Threw it on a press bender with appropriate radii to avoid cracking. Took it home and discovered I hadn’t left myself quite enough clearance at the injectors, so it was back to work and a lunch hour on the mill to open it up just slightly.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket4.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket5.jpg)
Mike shot these in black wrinkle powder for me, then I added riv nuts and they were pretty much complete.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket6.jpg)
Somewhere I have pictures of the process (not finding it right now) but the coil packs I bought used had been painted red and then back to black, and the paint was done quite badly so they were chipped and ugly. After sanding started looked like it would take forever, I pulled off the housings (thanks to “ilovemybike” and his commanche swap for the inspiration), sandblasted everything (coils included, but with tender bits masked), and clear coated the packs/powder coated the housings.
Brackets were made to follow the perimeter of each pack with a small allocation for wiring to pass through from underneath. The gloss on wrinkle contrast came out pretty nice.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket7.jpg)
Lastly, just for my inner ricer, I made a pair of tiny brackets from a chunk of monolithic carbon fiber (8 solid layers of carbon!) to hold the coil harness connector in the proper position with stand offs.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket8.jpg)
Should be fun to see who spots these at the car meets. What do you think, should we turn these into a Ronin product?
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CoilBracket9.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Expansion9.jpg)
That's it for now. Need to post a bit on the exhaust build, but car should be running before that gets posted. :cheers:
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Wow! Those coil pack brackets are really nice! How much do you think it would be if you sold them through Ronin?
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Thanks, glad you like them. Best guess $130-145 w/ non-carbon hole down hardware. Water jet is fine, we do that already, bending can be done in batches. They're a bit of a pain to prep for powder coat since there are so many edges to break. Biggest issue is just going to be sure I don't cook my wiring with it tucked a bit tighter to the valve covers. Still I should know that just about as soon as the car's driving.
65imp helped me get reasonable injector values uploaded on my tune so the car holds idle for the first time. Just need to get my cooling and fan 100% done and I should be good to take it around the block this weekend (albeit hood less).
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Joel, I am stoked for you to finally get a chance to drive your car again. I am concerned about one thing that I see and that is the solid line that joins the fuel rails. As nicely fitted as it is, my concern is breakage, cracking, etc. I have been using Startlite on the most recent fuel systems I've done and it has fantastic flexibility as well as strength. Just my unsolicited .02 because I care.
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Hey Charlie,
Interesting thought. Can you comment a bit more about what might cause the hardline to flex or see load? I don't think thermal would be much of an issue with the fuel constantly flowing through it also that would tend to be a pretty small deformation that occurred slowly...
Do you think it's going to work harden with vibration? Hadn't really considered that, but I see the possibility. I can check it for harmonics revving the engine through the rpm band to see if it flutters. I could also strap it to one of the band clamps for the throttle body. This was partly for bling and partly for packaging. I'm basically treating the fuel as an in-line 8 cylinder with the path in series. I'm not sure I have space to use a -8 flex line as the wall thicknesses tend to be so much greater.
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Work hardening, vibration, pressure, pulsation, etc.. I know it seems far fetched but it can, has, does happen. Mazda had plenty of issues with fuel lines cracking on last years GT cars. As a suggestion you could easily use a couple of elbows on the end of the rails with -8 startlite hose. Crazy light and waaaay more flexible than standard aqp.
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(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0630Custom.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/9DSC_0739Custom.JPG)
Remember the above? Notice how my upper rivet nuts point right at the top tub of the core? Yep, punctured in two spots. That's after I realized the hardware might bottom out, measure and cut down the threads. Needed to cut an extra 1/32" shorter to account for the plastic shroud squishing slightly.
Color me frustrated, looks like a tough repair too. Probably should have taken the time to make an isolated cradle rather than just mounting it directly.
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Ugh, that really sucks. :(
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Only idea thus far is to see if I can cut off the tank caps and re-weld with them lowered 3/8" to just abandon the top row of the exchanger. Still it's going to be pretty terrible to do without getting metal shavings into everything. :banghead:
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Can you try to epoxy or jb weld the area in question? Is it a big hole or just a small cut in the tube? Not the most elegant, but might be worth a shot.
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Somewhere between a dimple/rub/crack in the tube, I'd be trying to epoxy something I can't easily clean, which had had evan's coolant come out of it once already. Just guessing but I'm not sure it'll hold and I'd have a hard time trusting it. Going to show it to some of the fab guys in the shop.
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We can weld the row where you poked through I have done it before. Its not very fun though and you need to be very careful.
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You could clean it out with brake clean.. I bet epoxy, jb weld or water weld would work.
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I'm going to start but cutting out the riv nut tabs so I can see what's going on and then take it to a radiator shop and see if they have recommendations. I'm thinking I may cut out all three top tabs and weld tabs on the backside of the riv nuts to make sure this can't happen again before I weld them back in.
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Good call. Rad shop might be able to braze it if they can get in there.
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Looks like they make some specific purpose solder products, that might do the trick.
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Bummer Joel. Hey, I noticed you mentioned a cradle and I was gonna suggest that to you. I headed that direction on our stuff after seeing every Hinson rad crack, break, etc. repeatedly. There is enough flex going on that mounting to the chassis itself will eventually cause the rad to crack. Nick's has epoxy all over it and needs to be replaced.
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I worried about flex and cracking as well.
My radiator has a mount on each side that sits on the frame rail and is rubber isolated. I have a lower cradle on the passenger side to relieve the pressure on the frame rail mounts and keep the radiator from wanting to rotate back to vertical. My air filter panel mounts to the radiator as well, but very loose and also rubber isolated. I want to get another cradle on the drivers side, but I have to redesign it, my oil cooler lines are too close to where the drivers cradle mounted.
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Joel, I have some of the aluminum brazing rid that works well for those type of repairs. But it is prolly worth the 1 hour trip to the rad shop for them to repair.
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Just remember the mantra of car stuff... if you can break it, they can fix it. :D
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http://www.norotors.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=3724;preview (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=3724;preview)
This is the setup that I run w/fbody fans and now running over top air bridge
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That is pretty similar to mine Charlie.
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It's on the ground and has been driven! No leaks this time. However, it still starts a lot harder than it should and idle is pretty bad despite the injector value update.
Question for the forum. It doesn't seem to be using all cylinders equally. I was shooting with a laser thermometer and getting a pretty big swing in values between cylinders. Fully warmed up (idle only) I was seeing only about 180 deg F on quite a few cylinders shooting about a diameter away from the header flange. A couple cylinders were in the 250 deg range and one at 310 or so. None were dead cold so I'm assuming spark is OK but I could try swaping a few coil packs around to double check that.
Thinking about sending out the fuel injectors to get cleaned. The were supposed to be new but I bought them private party. Any other ideas of things I should be looking for in the meantime?
-Joel
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Do you have a way to validate timing? Are you positive the cam is in the right spot?
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Engine was just freshened by HKE so I left the long block alone. I'd be surprised if they screwed up the cam position but it's possible.
Spark plugs are new so I'll pull those and look for anything obvious (IE FC3S Murray's fuel flooding issues). I should probably also get a wideband on it and see where my tune's at. If it were just running terrible, I'd say that's more or less expected. The difference in primary temps has me curious though.
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That is good news.. I have a wideband if you need one Joel.
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After troubleshooting coilpacks and plug wires on my setup I can tell you that 180*F on an IR header reading is basically a dead cylinder - having a live cylinder next to it will heat up through the flange. That explains your tough start and bad idle. Pull the injector plug over the cylinder to verify - my guess is the idle won't change.
If those plugs look brand new and dry, it's the injector, if they're brand new and wet, it's the coilpack/wiring/plug wire.
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Thanks for the ideas y'all. At least 4 of the cylinders were reading 180 and the exhaust note was just typical cam-ragged not all-out-awful like I'd expect on 3-4 cylinders.
Couple good things I can report:
-Clutch disk is world's nicer with the ceramic disc instead of iron in there.
-I have missed power steering in my rx7 a lot and it's awesome. Definitely info on Turn One coming soon.
Little ironic story from last night... It's holding idle and nothing leaks, so I decide, what the heck I'll take it over to 65imp's (1/2 mile away, same neighborhood). Go pulling out around the corner. Right as I'm thinking "damn this thing is loud, muffler's aren't doing much" and pull up to the main loop I come smack face to face with a Tustin police officer rolling by a low speed RIGHT in front me. Bear in mind I have no hood... He takes a long look but keeps moving, but then drops it to about 15 mph. I was already clearly turning right so I follow him out feeling like an idiot (and trying to buckle my harnesses since I hadn't really planned on going for a neighborhood drive). At least I installed the front plate... I'm hanging back but the cop is still only doing 15 mph. I pull over and say screw it, if he flips a U I'll just have to be nice ask forgiveness. He keeps going, but still at low speed.
I flip a U, drive back to my place and throw it in the garage as fast as I can. Note to self: I need to finish the hood. And I need to build some street oriented mufflers this thing is going to attract too much attention.
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LOL, you guys need to come up here. I drove to the exhaust shop with open headers without a second thought. Shoot, I put 1500 miles on the car with the exhaust dumping out a fender; I've sat next to cops at lights with them on the exhaust dump side, I just look over and smile. :P
I'm sure with the way they deal with that stuff out there, that had to be an, uncomfortable, few minutes.
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Welcome to my world. Funny thing is, I haven't had any problems in the 1000+ street miles I've put on it.
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I have not had any issues yet either.. I am registering mine in AZ soon though so I don't have to deal with emissions.
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LOL, you guys need to come up here. I drove to the exhaust shop with open headers without a second thought. Shoot, I put 1500 miles on the car with the exhaust dumping out a fender; I've sat next to cops at lights with them on the exhaust dump side, I just look over and smile. :P
I'm sure with the way they deal with that stuff out there, that had to be an, uncomfortable, few minutes.
yea, my car on open headers was definitely not one of the louder cars at woodward...
i did end up getting a ticket for "sudden acceleration" but i dont think the volume of my headers were to blame for that...
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All cylinders have been confirmed as getting spark with an in line light bulb checker. Need to pull plugs next. Revved it up to about 3k for a minute or so and this was the result.
V8 rx7 Ls2 stroker - differential temps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX29ugGDbfQ#ws)
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Thanks to 65imp on the hptuners loan and to LargeOrangeFont for helping me learn my way around that a bit.
We cleared the DTCs and found I had a real one popping up: P0343 Cam Position Sensor High. In all likelihood that explains my hard start problem.
Despite that we took a couple laps around the neighborhood and it pulled a lot harder than I remember at low rpms. The 3.55 gears match the engine really well and I think I'm going to like the mild cam I'm running. :cheers:
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I'm off on a business trip in China and not much to do in the evening except research car stuff. Learning a few things. First, I don't actually know which version of cam reluctor I have in my engine. It looks like they come in a few different versions and it's possible I'm once again finding the downsides of mixing and matching.
From Lingenfelter's website:
(http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/reluctor01_350x350.jpg)
They go on to explain:
A - Single bolt 4X camshaft gear from a 2007-2014 LS2 or LS3 engine. GM part number 12591689.
B - Three bolt 4X camshaft gear from a 2006 LS2 Corvette or from a 2006-2009 LS7 Corvette engine. GM part number 12586481.
C - Three bolt 1X camshaft gear from a 2005 LS2 Corvette or a 2005-2006 LS2 GTO/SSR/Trailblazer engine. GM part number 12576407.
D - Three bolt camshaft gear from a 1997-2004 LS1, LS6 or other Gen III V8 engines. No reluctor teeth are on the timing chain gear since the camshaft position sensor is at the back of the block and senses the camshaft speed from the reluctor machined into the back of the camshaft itself. GM part number 12552953.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=L200175307&Category_Code=C38#.UyAcv4ValVK (http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LPE&Product_Code=L200175307&Category_Code=C38#.UyAcv4ValVK)
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Back stateside and it looks like I have the 1x cam reluctor after all. Doesn't explain my issue, but at least I'm not pulling the front of the engine back apart.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Md3xkUvf4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Md3xkUvf4#ws)
This was run with the coil packs disconnected since I wanted it spinning slowly and it didn't know if it might puke out the open hole.
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Quick tangent on tools, specifically socket organizers:
I just threw down from the Craftsman 299 piece socket set. Azar's thread about tools (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=19096.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=19096.0)) had me thinking about an upgrade. Well, they're in the mail, but I still needed good place to put the damn things. Closest thread I found on here talking about tool organizers was some good chatter about the big Harbor Freight tool boxes. (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1012 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=1012))
That said, considering I was just overseas I spent a bunch of time looking at socket rails and organizers, I figured I should post up what I found.
I wanted to be able to grab a rail and take it to the work under the car or whatever (much like I've been used to doing with my smaller sets). At the same time I didn't really like the all metal clip rails since it seems like they bend and/or springs wear out. A friend has all the Snap On sockets with color coded magnetic organizers which are pretty trick. That got me thinking and doing some reading...
My 0.02
1) Money no object, coolest organizers on the planet:
http://www.vimtools.com/store/page30.html (http://www.vimtools.com/store/page30.html)
(http://www.vimtools.com/store/media/Large/mag_tl_1.JPG)
(http://r3.cygnuspub.com/files/cygnus/image/PTEN/2010/OCT/600x400/drawerpic_10183612.jpg)
Rare earth magnetics let you do some interesting things but at $33 a stick for the 16" it was way out of reach.
2) Another version with serious anodized aluminum bling, but only works if you plan to store all your sockets upright and in a drawer. This still had the possibility of dropping it and banging up the holder while scattering your ish everywhere.
http://westlingmachine.com/ToolHolders.html (http://westlingmachine.com/ToolHolders.html)
(http://westlingmachine.com/image/1.jpg)
3) Then there's always the classic Hanson/Harbor Freight/Grip (marked vertical post style)
There are a hole bunch of middle of the road options reviewed in a Truckin shootout article.
http://www.truckinweb.com/editorial/1307_truckin_tough/ (http://www.truckinweb.com/editorial/1307_truckin_tough/)
(http://hansenglobalinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/6pack-trays.jpg)
4) I really considered the Lisle magnetic racks (see also the Truckin article). They're almost the right size, but I'd still need a bunch of them. http://www.toolsource.com/advanced_search_result.php?search=1&query=lisle+magnetic&x=0&y=0 (http://www.toolsource.com/advanced_search_result.php?search=1&query=lisle+magnetic&x=0&y=0)
(http://image.truckinweb.com/f/editorial/1307_truckin_tough/46008577/lisle-magnetic-socket-holders.jpg)
These are still a contender and I still might get a couple for the sockets I grab the most. Downside, they're bulky to store unless you stack them.
At the end of the day, I decided that the plastic ball detent style was probably my best bet for bang for the buck. Kobalt sells a really nice version (Kobalt Multiple Drive Steel Storage Tray) with multiple rows, but it'd be a bit harder to fit in a tool box and my box is small roller.
(http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/099198/099198859231.jpg)
Ernst and Wright were a couple more names I ran across consistently. They look great and fit the bill but they're still more expensive than I wanted to pay so at the end it all boiled down to a debate between harbor freight and craftsman.
Harbor Freight sells several styles but the one I liked most is item #68101
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-14-38-and-12-socket-rail-set-68101.html#.UzEbRPldWYE (http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-14-38-and-12-socket-rail-set-68101.html#.UzEbRPldWYE)
The Craftsman are notably better quality plastic and come in two colors:
http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-3-pc-socket-rack-set/p-00941849000P?prdNo=7&blockNo=7&blockType=G7 (http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-3-pc-socket-rack-set/p-00941849000P?prdNo=7&blockNo=7&blockType=G7)
http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-3-pc-socket-holder/p-00941829000P?prdNo=11&blockNo=11&blockType=G11 (http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-3-pc-socket-holder/p-00941829000P?prdNo=11&blockNo=11&blockType=G11)
They also have the disadvantage that you'll have to but a big stack of extra clips since they only come with 10, 10, and 8 studs for 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 respectively. Some folks steal clips from other sets, but if you want the craftsman version it's actually cheaper just to buy extra rail sets.
http://www.craftsman.com/search=studsskt?storeId=10155&catalogId=12602&viewItems=12&levels=Hand+Tools&sLevel=0&redirectType=SKIP_LEVEL (http://www.craftsman.com/search=studsskt?storeId=10155&catalogId=12602&viewItems=12&levels=Hand+Tools&sLevel=0&redirectType=SKIP_LEVEL)
I stubbled across an article that made this exact comparison and happened to have a bunch pictures of the harbor freight jobbies used with my exact socket kit.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48117 (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48117)
Same set different user... Kind nice that I get a cheat sheet on how to set these up.
(http://i.imgur.com/kYnwD.jpg)
Decided the cheap version was too tempting since I've already spent more than I was planning. Ordered the same 10x socket rail kits from the Freight. At that cost I can play with shooting a couple in powder the next time Ronin is doing powder coat and not worry if I wreck a few. Also if they do break, I can at least upgrade the rails I'm finding I use the most.
So, there it is. Everything you ever wanted to know (or not) about socket rails. Hopefully I saved someone on here a few hours of reading/research that I already did.
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I have a combination of the HF metal detent ones and the HF vertical posts. No complaints after several years of ownership, they work very well and are space efficient in the box. You have more sockets than I do, though. :)
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magnets are really cool until that one time someone grinds steel with the drawers open.
i've been happy with the vertical hansen/harbor freight ones.
note for the same thing from Kobalt: the labels are not on the stems but in front of the trays, which is hard to see in drawers and plus the Kobalt ones go big to small as opposed to small to big which is unfortunate if you are mixing brands in your drawers.
i do have some of the clip on plastic rails for my junkyard toolset though.
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Nice Joel! That 299 piece set is great for the price.
I have the cheap HF metal rails with metal spring clips.. I have been using them for 5 years or so and I think I have replaced 2 clips in that time, and bent 1 rail. I like that you can cut them down to any size for smaller sets, (Torx or 1/4" drive for instance that only need a few inches of rail) and they are very low profile and conserve space. It allows me to keep my sockets in the shallow drawers of my box, and on their sides for easy reference.
It works for me but I know tools and tool storage is almost a religious discussion for some people.
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magnets are really cool until that one time someone grinds steel with the drawers open.
Ha. Good thought. Definitely a downside in taking it to the work too since my garage has metal dust under the car pretty regularly.
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Cam position sensor issue FIXED!
Ironically, LS1tech was my source of salvation.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/495874-damn-ls2-cam-position-sensor.html (http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/495874-damn-ls2-cam-position-sensor.html)
Lead to the finding the GM may have switched some wires with keeping the connector and pins the same.
http://www.ls2.com/forums/showthread.php?626014-How-to-Install-an-LS2-in-an-LS1-car (http://www.ls2.com/forums/showthread.php?626014-How-to-Install-an-LS2-in-an-LS1-car)
By the way that link at LS2.com above is about the most comprehensive version of the LS2 running in a car intended for LS1 that I've found. There should be significant commonalities with LS3s and LS7s as well.
The key finding in the above is that GM in their infinite wisdom, SWITCHED two of the wires on the cam position sensor.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/Cam-Wires.jpg)
Note the colors are different than shown above, but you basically just switch the outer wires, keeping constant power the same.
A little digging on youtube for how you de-pin GM connectors later:
How To Disassemble GM Style (LS) Connectors (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebO4-EwMJDM#ws)
...and... my car fire and runs beautifully. :yay:
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I finally aligned the car early Sunday morning. I wanted to caravan it to church (just to be sure it wasn't doing anything weird with someone behind me).
In driving this around the block I'd apparently been doing so with it toed out about 1/2" (it was pure eyeballing before this). Turn in was great and it wasn't squeeling or protesting so it surprised me that I was that far out. I set it for zero toe front and left the rear at 1/16" in. The downside is that the steering is a little dull by comparison. Thinking about leaving a little toe out up front since the steering is a little numb by comparison. Anyone have thoughts on 1/16" out front with 1/16" in rear? I know perceptions of what works well have changed over time.
BTW my steering wheel was off by 70 degrees when aligned with equal thread engagement. Rather than pull the linkage, I pulled the steering wheel to get it back to straight. Now my turn signal only auto cancels in right hand turns. I'm guessing I need to put the wheel back where it's supposed to be and adjust linkage. Is there any way to tell whether the signal release triggers/detents are straight without pulling the cowl?
The good news is that this really is a heck of an engine. I stood on it hard and suddenly from about 3500 rpm in third and lit up the tires while merging onto the freeway (they were cold, but still it had me grinning). You can tell it has a cam but it also pulls from 2500 rpm where-as my last setup got going more like 3k.
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If memory serves, when you pull the wheel the tabs that stick out for the cancel should be vertically aligned. You should just need to pull the wheel for that. It's been a while, so I may be confused, buuuuuuuuut, those are on the clock spring, not that shaft, you should be able to pull the wheel center the shaft, align the clock spring vertically and reseat the steering wheel and have it be fine. I do not believe anything way keyed to anything else, per se.
Like I said, it's been a while since and I have a hub adapter with a billion alignment options, so I may be reallllllllllly wrong. :P
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Yes I'd run with a little toe out in the front, it will keep the turn in crisp.
I run 1/16" toe out in the front. and 3/32" toe in rear. I don't think you will have any issues with your intended settings.
I used to run 1/16" toe in rear, but dialed in a little more a couple months ago, and the car seemed slightly more stable on exit.
I can't wait to get another ride in the car now that all the engine oddities are fixed.
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Did you just realign the steering wheel on the hub adapter? or did you pull the entire thing off the taper?
did you ever disconnect the steering linkage? maybe that's misaligned?
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Thanks Blake, I'm not sure I even looked for wheel alignment behind the splines, since I was throwing this together fast. I could have this all wrong, but it sounds like pulling the wheel back off if my first step regardless.
Thanks Ash, I'll give it a go. FWIW, if anyone is interested one full rotation of a single tie rod yields about 1/4" toe. If I'm looking for a 1/16" I want 90 deg on one side or 45 degree on both.
Eage, Yes, it all came apart. I swapped back to a power steering rack so linkage and everything was out. I basically ball-parked the rack near the center of the stroke for reassembly and reconnected the linkage where it sat with it up in the air. Steering wheel was pulled off the tapered spline but I can't remember what it looked like behind there so I figured it was worth the question.
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Thanks Ash, I'll give it a go.
Did you just realign the steering wheel on the hub adapter? or did you pull the entire thing off the taper?
did you ever disconnect the steering linkage? maybe that's misaligned?
Oh yeah, it all came apart. I swapped back to a power steering rack so linkage and everything was out. I basically ball-parked the rack near the center of the stroke for reassembly and reconnected the linkage where it sat with it up in the air. Steering wheel was pulled off the tapered spline but I can't remember what it looked like behind there so I figured it was worth the question.
I forget how it locates itself on the shaft also... it's been a while since I've had the canceler off. something tells me you can't move it though... I would put the steering wheel back on the way it was and try to adjust it as close as you can with the coupler u-joint thingy...
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Ha, using LS2 cam angle sensor and didn't know the wiring was different?
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/07/0742089defd4ae2b4b09d69224a869a9de8609d22f566c7f8a79f8bd0af201a9.jpg)
Totally kidding, glad you got it knocked out. With larger front tires up front, you need a little toe out to keep turn-in characteristics good throughout the range of "yank it hard" and "sunday drive". Toe in for the back is great for mid-corner drive. FC's need camber up front too.
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Drove it in to the office yesterday. Had 6-7 guys come walking out when I pulled up, I guess they heard me coming. Kinda fun, lots of kudos and nice things said about the car even though I have a bunch of body work on the hood still to do.
Did a wee little burn out in the back lot and this might be the first time I've ever had it spin the tires perfectly smooth from a dead stop. Wheel hop had been my nemesis for a long time prior to the 8.8 setup.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/NoWheelHop.jpg)
It's seen WOT a few times now and I can't get over the pull. That said, I need to get a wideband on the car before I start pushing it. I'm assuming the tuning things we did should have it close, but I think I've been having too much fun when I need to be patient and be sure everything is 100% right. Idle has a little bit of rythmic staccato sound to it that I can't place. I'm planning to do a compression check since it reminds me a bit of blown piston rings I screwed up on a 4 banger one time (long story but suffice it to say nitrous is not my friend).
Anyone have links to actual published break in procedures? I think everyone agrees mixed driving is good, but some folks say to keep it easy and part throttle while others claim running it hard is good for seating the piston rings. I'm mostly in the later camp, but I don't really have a good reason why, it just makes some sense to me.
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Taking it easy will ensure that nothing bad happens, but if cylinder pressures never get up there while the rings are in the process of sealing, they'll never seal as well as they could have. Same (or more importantly) with the oil control rings.
I did multiple SBK engines in my GSXR1000 when I was racing (semi) competitively and when a buddy and I did side-by-side breakins, the motors made within .5hp of each other before break in and were 6-7hp apart (with my 'hard/varied' breakin ahead) a couple hundred miles later... mine 'sounded'/felt smoother too, but that could just me my neurosis.
IMO breaking it in on the dyno is good, on the track is best! Street breakin involves getting it up to temp a few times then taking it out to the freeway for 10 or 15mi of pulls from light throttle, low rpms, to heavy throttle mid rpms, to high throttle high rpms - letting engine braking seal the oil rings after every pull (not much foot braking). Take it back, change the oil to look for shiny goodies, and let 'er rip. :cheers:
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Get a wideband on it soon Joel, I can bring mine over if needed. My car felt great when I started driving it. Then I put the wideband on it and saw I was a point too lean. It picked up a lot of power after giving it some more fuel.
I concour with Jefe.. I broke mine in semi aggressively, lots of varied RPM on the freeway, different gears, letting it engine brake, rev matching and downshifting. I changed the oil after 30 mins, 50 miles, 150 miles, 250 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and 1600 miles. I have a bit over 2000 miles now, and the oil really started to clean up after this last oil change.
I ran with 10w30 until 500 miles and switched to 20w50.
That
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Jeff, thanks for the feedback. Nice to have a practical data point.
Ash, I picked up a wide band gauge that I plan to run on my steering column, but I still need to weld the bung and graft in a mini pod. I also just bought the innovate exhaust clamp (even though I know you have one) just because that'll make my other standalone wide band that much easier to use on everything else. That should be here on Friday so I can play with it this weekend.
I don't know how much power this has left in it but either way I think this car is going to love traction control... :halo:
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^^^ That's what I like to hear!
I have a pair of Zeitronix wb02's that I'd give ya if you wanted em. Reading both banks is rad.
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Ash, I picked up a wide band gauge that I plan to run on my steering column, but I still need to weld the bung and graft in a mini pod. I also just bought the innovate exhaust clamp (even though I know you have one) just because that'll make my other standalone wide band that much easier to use on everything else. That should be here on Friday so I can play with it this weekend.
I don't know how much power this has left in it but either way I think this car is going to love traction control... :halo:
Perfect. If you want to check it in the meantime let me know. I would imagine the tune is reasonably close, but the engine size was not spot on in the tune, so give it a once over before you start putting the wood to it.
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I took my four year old out for a ride which always makes for a pretty awesome daddy daughter date. For whatever reason I expect my girls to be goldfish and not remember anything from a year or more back. Lana was telling me how she remembered the last drive I took her on:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/dmDSC_0534Custom.JPG)
Yeah, she was two in this picture!
Anyways, the not so great news is that I threw another couple engine codes.
-P0300 Multiple Cylinder Misfire
-P0153 2/1 02 Sens Slow Response
The misfire is likely the explanation for the rhythmic idle tone I was hearing but I've decided I'm mostly going to garage this thing again until I get it squared away. Hopefully I have some time to play this weekend.
The one thing that's interesting is that the 02 sensor that's protesting is Bank 2, Position 1 (the 2/1 in the code above) which I don't think I actually have. If I'm remembering this right Bank 1 contains the number 1 cylinder, and positions are relative to flow. As such we're talking about the passenger side upstream 02 sensor which in my case is an 02 sim. That should help me start looking but it's a little odd given the sim.
[EDIT: ignore the above, I was thinking about this backward... upstream 02's I have, downstream are the sims!]
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Why don't you have a passenger oxygen sensor?
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I can't remember, but did you put in a lighter flywheel this go around? Could answer your misfire codes depending how light you went. Also, have you tried re-learning CASE just in case?
Also, you put an O2 simulator in for a front sensor? So it is just seeing one voltage now and not switching? That might not jive with the diagnostic tests that set at P0153.
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Sorry, I was thinking about this backwards. The 02's upstream of the cat should be the ones that matter (those I have). Downstream is reference after the cat and those are sims on my car. I left all the wiring in case I need to switch back to factory manifolds /cats at some point in the future. Now the code makes sense and says, I do need to double check the 02 since it is the main passenger 02 that's having the issue.
FWIW I'm a novice with tuning. Care to explain CASE relearn and why you'd do one? I'm running the same Monster billet flywheel I had and the only change to the clutch was the friction disc and hydraulic routing.
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CASE = Crankshaft Angle Sensor Error. Basically it is a procedure if a new crank sensor, ECU, damper, etc. gets installed that allows the ECU to learn the inconsisencies or build tolerances of parts. This is learned and stored away and is taken into consideration when the misfire logic is used. It would allow the misfire diagnostics to understand these errors and not falsely set misfire codes, or perhaps even miss misfire events depending on the previous CASE learn value.
I am not saying it will solve your problem, but it might be worth a shot.
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My PCM and sensor is the same, but the block, crank, reluctor wheel, and damper all all new. Sounds like a good idea. Thanks for the tip.
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I "think" someone with HP Tuners can come over and request a CASE learn for you. If not, the dealer can do it with a Tech2.
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I "think" someone with HP Tuners can come over and request a CASE learn for you. If not, the dealer can do it with a Tech2.
yes, hptuners can do it no problem
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Joel if you want to try a CASE learn I'll bring by my scanner on Sunday.
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Yep I or you can do it with HP tuners.
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Spark plugs are all black and smell like fuel.
Compression ratio was nice and steady across the board though. Using starter only with a trickle charger hooked up to keep the voltage steady, it had a low of 199 psi, high of 214 psi. Most in low 200's which seems plenty healthy.
Running rich is at least safe so at least I can drive her while I get the rest sorted.
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Pardon me while I go back to revisit a few things I didn't write down at the time. Still, when you get a car running it's such an awesome feeling that you kinda want to skip to the end and let folks know it happened...
That said, half of the reason I wrote / am writing this thread is to document things for myself so I can remember the lessons learned for the next job. This one's fairly straight forward, just an exhaust build... but it took forever to get it done how I wanted.
So I'd built a bitching set of headers a while back right? I’m picking up where that left off.
Ran stainless screws on the merges per Jack Burn’s suggestion:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust1.jpg)
Left myself just enough space for the 02 bungs. (No pic of the bung but exhaust bungs aren’t that exciting anyways).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust2.jpg)
Here’s one key lesson learned: The type of V-bands I was using (Deed’s Engineering) have keys to maintain precise alignment. I think the OBX bands and a few others do this too. Cool right?
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust3.jpg)
Turns out welding will deform keyed v-bands just enough that they won’t key together anymore… Note to self, if there’s any way to do so, ALWAYS weld up the V-bands with a mating part clamped to it to help keep it from moving on ya. I have probably 2-3 hours with a dremel grinding and fitting and grinding and fitting to get these to key back together like they’re supposed to.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust4.jpg)
So header’s were finally done done done and installed. Now I’m building the rest. I’m a big fan of 1:1 printed paper doll studies to work out geometry. Here’s my x-pipe study.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust5.jpg)
I debated a little bit over how much overlap to run on the crossover. Ended up calling Jeff Jordan and rapping theory with him for while. Good stuff... At the end of the day, I decided to aim each upstream pipe almost at the from the fork downstream so 2/3 of the flow would continue down the pipe it came from and 1/3 could cross over. It seems like companies making good power (American Racing, LG, Kooks, etc) tend to not do a full cross and I could see why I might not want to have a significant reduction in area.
So now to make it a reality. Started by coming off the headers at angles kinda where it wanted to be to split the difference between trans tunnel and transmission.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust6.jpg)
I’m still quite stoked on the Ronin trans mount. This is a dual 3” exhaust and it packages nicer than my old Grannies setup did with 2.5 duals.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust7.jpg)
Key thing I did for getting the alignment right for the X-pipe was setting up a guide string. No idea if this is common in industry but it made sense to me as a reference of where I wanted to land and what was going to be required to take two random angles off the headers (at unequal distances from my x-pipe) and get them to land straight and true.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust8.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust9.jpg)
I built passenger first but you can see how I need two angles on the driver’s side to keep everything tangent.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust10.jpg)
X-pipe was 15” downstream of the collectors. I’m a big fan of David Vizard’s book “How to Build Horsepower” and recommends 10-20” as a ballpark collector length, albeit he typically does the whole pressure wave termination box thing, which I decided not to.
Jack Burns (of Burns Stainless) just says to run them as close to the merges as you can get. This seemed to land pretty well regardless of whose advice I was following.
Before I fully committed and welded the X-pipe I started the muffler end to have a better idea what I was aiming for. I only own 8 jack stands and the car was on 4 of them so I had to get a little creative to get everything shimmed in place. No, I didn’t tell my wife I borrowed the camera tri pod.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust11.jpg)
Mufflers are Vibrant TPV 1090’s. http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1022_1031_1052&products_id=1165 (http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1022_1031_1052&products_id=1165)
One of the key lessons I picked up from the Vizard book I mentioned was in regards to sizing exhaust via flow rather than pipe size. Key rules of thumb:
1) You need 2.2 cfm of flow per engine horsepower if you want to be near “loss less”.
2) A straight pipe flows 115 cfm (at exhaust pressures) per inch of cross sectional area.
3) A straight through perf core muffler flows about 55-60% of a smooth straight pipe at equivalent pressure.
Note that last rule isn’t Vizard’s but that what I found in studying and crunching numbers on what muffler flow data I was able to find online. He does discuss running bigger muffler cores than the rest of the piping which is really the key point.
Brass tacks. These are 4” core mufflers. You can reach your whole arm in the tip, which isn’t really a tip since there’s no change in diameter to the inside. These sound ---ummmm--- healthy? :yay:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust12.jpg)
By the way, if you have the means… Backpurge all your stuff! I don’t have said means, but I’m a still a dork, so I went back in and ground off all the “sugaring” on the inside wherever I could.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust13.jpg)
Here’s the mid section, starting to look like something. That last weld (see sharpie mark on the right) was hard because you can’t get a torch all the way in there. About 1" of tungsten stickout later and you can officially color me impressed at what a gas lens can do to help a torch.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust14.jpg)
These are the weld that matter, when you tie the front to the back you’ve committed to where the muffler’s land so this was one I spend a great deal of time on and was somewhat challenging to get right. FWIW I wouldn’t even attempt to do this job without a big disc sander. You’ll be using that a lot to trim angles a 1/32" here and there.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust15.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust16.jpg)
And here we are back under the car. Ronin 8.8 peeking out, makes me happy.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust17.jpg)
Mid section is nice and straight and centered.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust18.jpg)
Left about 1/4" clearance to the subframe since my car is relatively low. Nice shot of the Ronin 8.8’s front mount as well.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust19.jpg)
Smooth tapers for the upsized mufflers. Wanted to keep flow as smooth as I could.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust20.jpg)
Last but not least I thought I show of some comparison of my slowly improving TIG skills. I still suck at feeding so I start and stop more than I should but at I’m learning to compensate. Here’s a couple welds at the beginning of the project.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust21.jpg)
Compared to that about halfway through the job.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust22.jpg)
Did just about everything on the bench with a small vice as a support V to keep things from rolling.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Frijolee429Exhaust23.jpg)
All hangers were built after the fact using 3/8” pencil rod. If you heat up the rod (propane torch, map gas if you have it) you can bend it reasonably nicely with a hammer and vise. I used a hodge podge of worm screw hose clamps to hold them to the body of the muffler to tack them in place under the car. All welds critical to fit were tacked like that, less critical ones I just marked orientation and tacked on the bench prior to fit check.
Not doing this with a lift I think had me climbing back and forth under my car ~200 times, by the time it was all done. Still, it lands perfect and I learned a ton. Feels good to do things yourself.
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That is outstanding Joel! Perfect.
I keep debating on building a set of stainless headers and exhaust for mine but looking at your car makes me want to do it even more now. That just looks awesome. :cheers:
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I can vouch that this thing sounds MEAN with this exhaust and the new engine. Joel has me contemplating new axle backs for my car too :)
Great work Joel.
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Nice!
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Thanks guys. I've had more dudes stop me and ask "what's in that thing" in a couple weeks driving this than I did in a couple years driving the old setup. It makes me laugh and I dig it, but I do wonder if it'll get me more attention from Johnny Law than I'm really looking for (People's Republic of Kalifornia and all that)...
Weird getting old where your ability to say F it and just go be a hellion starts to wane .
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Thanks guys. I've had more dudes stop me and ask "what's in that thing" in a couple weeks driving this than I did in a couple years driving the old setup. It makes me laugh and I dig it, but I do wonder if it'll get me more attention from Johnny Law than I'm really looking for (People's Republic of Kalifornia and all that)...
Weird getting old where your ability to say F it and just go be a hellion starts to wane .
I never get tired of people stopping me to ask what's under the hood haha. When cops ask I just tell them it's smog legal, worked so far!
As far as being a hellion, there will always be a younger, better looking crop of dudes to do just that :wave: :yay:
I'm about to take mine to get lunch haha
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I'll be interested to see what your thoughts are on the Anti Venom mod. I contemplated doing it last year but soon got used to the feel of the stiff T56 after a complete rebuild. After taking a few months off of driving it and jumping in yesterday, I'm reminded how stiff it really is and am thinking about it again. Worth getting her up on the jackstands?
Lane
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I'll be interested to see what your thoughts are on the Anti Venom mod. I contemplated doing it last year but soon got used to the feel of the stiff T56 after a complete rebuild. After taking a few months off of driving it and jumping in yesterday, I'm reminded how stiff it really is and am thinking about it again. Worth getting her up on the jackstands?
Lane
I think it's worth doing if it's out, but probably not otherwise. It's still a stiff notchy trans and I'm still capable of blowing the 2-3 shift under power. The last time this happened by clutch stuck to the floor momentarily so it could be related to hydraulics too.
I need a bit more drive time in anger to have a better feel for things, but thus far the anti-venom is "ok" but not a game changer. I'd really like to try driving a TR6060 at some point to see if the feel is any better and/or whether that might make sense as an upgrade whenever I hit the point of where my trans wants a rebuild.
-Joel
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I'd really like to try driving a TR6060 at some point to see if the feel is any better and/or whether that might make sense as an upgrade whenever I hit the point of where my trans wants a rebuild.
-Joel
Come on up, the car just sits around all day ;) Still has Hankook VentusTD's on it from the weekend too. :yay:
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Looks great. I second the big disk sander comment. Makes everything so much easier.
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Got to meet another one of my car heroes the other day: Rod Millen (whose former company I now work for).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RM-Frijolee1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RM-Frijolee2.jpg)
Told him I'd done a "little exhaust work" but nothing about what was under the hood before I lit it off for him. He jumped a bit when it lit (it barks), then got a big smile and leaned over to ask my general manager, "Chevy or Ford?"
Had him sign the inside of my glove box door in a place of honor.
Pretty cool meeting, there are still blueprints on some of the conference room walls for the tube chassis that became his Pikes Peak FC. Apparently he still owns several of his race car RX7s. Awesome!
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thats pretty awesome
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Figured I should status actual progress on the car.
There’s been 3 things keeping me from getting it back into daily driver rotation:
1) I’m still throwing that 02 sensor code and I just haven’t had time to get that car back on jackstands to do it. That’s pretty much the only hindrance to getting this tuned and seeing what she can do. It also stumbles and dies when cold and generally is still running crappy.
2) My exhaust is LOUD, without the other two issues I’d be more inclined to live with this, but as is, it’s just one more thing that can attract the wrong kind of attention. I decided I’d probably feel better if the rest of the car looked nicer (so at least I don’t look like a hack)
Which brings me to topic 3). The hood I basically cut in half back here: ( ) was both hideous and disreputable in it’s state of gelcoat, reinforcing fiberglass, and filler. I decided I didn’t want to drive a car that looked that bad so gave the body work priority even if it was less critical from an operational perspective.
Cue up Frijolee’s body shop.
Disclaimer: I’m not a pro by any means but I’ve learned a few things on a few projects and this was one of the harder ones I’ve done so I thought I’d share. If I’m doing this the hard way feel free to chime in but it seems to have worked for me.
Basic rules:
-Use the longest damn sanding blocks you can. I don’t trust my ability to “feel” low spots when things have multiple textures from multiple materials. Body shop guys are freaks of nature with what their hands can “see”. I’m not them so I have to rely more on methodology.
-Cheap sanding paper (IE harbor freight) can be made to last 20x longer if you back it with packing tape so it won’t tear if you snag it on an edge (the holes for my hood latches were bad from a snagging perspective).
-Air tools are your friend. I used both a dual action orbital and a HF 17” linear sander extensively. The big linear guy is a lot easier to control.
-Wipe everything down with acetone before applying the next layer of anything (fiberglass, bondo, or primer).
-Fiberglass fibers sticking off of edges will flex and refuse to sand off. Hit it with paint or resin or even filler and it’ll stiffen up so the sanding will slice it.
-Get it roughed out using 36 grit (try to get it somewhat close) but then switch to high build primer as soon as you can. I could never get it even and consistent when sanding over multiple materials. (IE bondo is softer than fiberglass so it removes faster.
-Once it’s all primer, you’re sanding through a more consistent material. Bondo and primer are closer to one another than either is to fiberglass and gel coat. Being a consistent color/texture makes it a heck of a lot easier to see and feel what’s going on, so you want to get to this stage as quickly as you can.
-After the primer is on, that’s the point I switch over to hand sanding as my opinion is that getting it right is more important than going fast.
Here we go:
Here’s my hood as it sat just finishing the roughing out. The area with the hood latches has been extra reinforced since this hood was laid up light (we’re using a thicker laminate schedule on all hood made now). You can see where the extra fiberglass peaks out vs. where the skim coat of bondo takes over. The filler looks terrible but it’s thin.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HoodFairing1.jpg)
The glass wrapped over the vents and bridge piece so I had a great deal of fairing to do to taper everything back together, sometimes painters tap can help you sand where you want but not where you don’t.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HoodFairing2.jpg)
Primer, still pretty rough at this point.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HoodFairing3.jpg)
Turns out I do a lot of my sanding in the dark (car projects rarely start until 9 pm when the kids are in bed). That said, a low light angle on a harsh floodlight shows you detail you an amazing amount of detail can’t see otherwise. That corner behind the passenger light that looks terrible is actually only about 0.010” out from where it wanted to be.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HoodFairing4.jpg)
Sanding with rough grits makes it pretty obvious where you’ve sanded and where you haven’t. I blocked this down to where I was just barely seeing structure come through. Then did a really light skim coat of bondo. Sanded that too (trying not to expose any more structure).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HoodFairing5.jpg)
Added my second coat of primer based on the above and prest-o change-o, that’s a pretty damn respectable hood, definitely drive-able.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HoodFairing6.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/HoodFairing7.jpg)
So where’s the money shot with this thing all painted? Sorry, but that’s going to have to hold off for a bit. There’s big news on the home front. We’re in escrow on our first house! That’s still a damn hard milestone to reach in southern California so we’re pretty stoked. I’m really looking forward to setting up the garage properly.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/CasaDeFrijolee.jpg)
We’re moving early August so that puts the car back on hold for a while but there you have it. At least it won’t look terrible when we move in. Don’t want to build a reputation as “that guy” early on (there’s plenty of time for that later!)
-Joel
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Good body shop tips (I hate doing that stuff lol) and uber congrats on the house man.
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House looks great Joel! Congrats. I see you have extra driveway space :)
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Nice work and congrats!
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Hood turned out well!
Congrats on the house
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Some 02 sensor info that I'll be using to help resolve my check engine light (as soon as I get a chance to do a little wrenching).
From this thread: http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1208104-o2-sensor-confusion.html (http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1208104-o2-sensor-confusion.html)
I think any of the o2 sensors would work with any of the harnesses (99-02) if they are wired correctly.
GM used CASE grounded o2 sensors and ISOLATED Ground O2 sensors. The CASE Ground type are only found on SOME 99-02 models.
After 2003, all o2 sensors were isolated ground. GM stopped referring to them as such, because all had changed, and there were no longer two types. for 2003+ applications, I would recommend running the o2 sensor designed for the harness, since the PCM now controls the heater circuit, using older sensors in this arrangement could cause issues.
In case grounded O2's. The TAN wire or TAN/White is connected to the BODY of the o2 sensor, where it threads into the exhaust pipe. There has to be a good ground from the o2, to the exhaust pipe, to manifold, to cylinder head. the PCM uses this as the GROUND reference when reading the O2 sensor SIGNAL on the purple wire. Each oxygen sensor has its own tan or tan/white wire going directly to the PCM. (PCM Blue pins 25,26,28,29) US and Mexico built trucks used this type, and the 5.3's Had flat front o2 sensor connectors.
In isolated ground o2's, the TAN wire from all 4 o2 sensors IS NOT connected to body of the sensor, and all 4 wires go into a splice pack in the harness. Then 5 wires come out of the splice and go to the PCM. 4 of the tans go to the SAME place as above in the case ground type. Then an additional TAN wire goes into the PCM (Blue Pin 63) to a Ground Reference provided by the PCM. this way, the PCM is supplying the ground reference to all 4 o2 sensors, which will be much more reliable then case ground type. Canada built vehicles got this type.
Okay, in 2003, all o2's were now isolated ground type. A change was done INSIDE the PCM so that the splice pack, and the 5th TAN wire to the PCM was not needed anymore. Each of the 4 locations in the PCM for the o2 senor tan wire, is now a Low Reference.
You need to first figure out WHICH TYPE of sensor you have. CASE or ISOLATED Ground. Check for continuity from body of the o2 sensor to the tan wire. Keep in mind, most o2 sensors wires are not color coded same as the engine harness, find where the tan wire WOULD go, and check it to the body of the sensor. This should be done with sensor removed from vehicle, and unplugged from harness, to avoid any incorrect readings. If you get continuity you have the case ground type, if NOT then its isolated.
Next, figure out what type of harness you have. inplug the PCM blue connector, and all oxygen sensors. Check for continuity from tan of one sensor connector to tan of another. If you get continuity, then there is a splice pack on the tan wires, and you have a ISOLATED ground harness.
For an ISOLATED ground sensor to work in a CASE ground harness, you will have to tie all the TAN wires in the engine harness o2 connectors together to a common ground point, could be to engine block, would probably work fine.
I'm pretty sure a CASE ground sensor would work fine in a ISOLATED ground harness without any modifications (other then o2 plug of course). In this arrangement, the o2 sensor would be getting a Ground from the body of the sensor, AND the splice pack in the harness.
The triangle connector o2's I've only seen on the FRONT set, on 6.0L/8.1L engines. 01 and 02 model year, the PCM supplies GROUND to the oxygen sensor heater circuit on the FRONT o2 sensors only. I think this is why GM used a different sensor, is to keep them from getting mixed up. The PCM modulates the ground to control heater current. I'm not sure, but I think you'd have problems with the heaters if you wired the heater in this directly to ground/power. I would not try to use a triangle plug sensor for a substitute someplace else. These harnesses also had a mix of CASE ground and ISOLATE ground sensors in the SAME harness. The front o2's were isolate, with the after CAT's still being a CASE ground. Now this was not 100%, you could have a mix of both types, or all one type. very confusing when you get into the 6.0 and 8.1 o2 wiring.
LS1 F-Body all used CASE ground, up to 02. These used the sensors with female pins, black square plastic connector.
Makes me wonder if I'm still getting a good ground through my slip on merge collectors. One more thing to go look at.
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Happened to note that my oil pressure is a little low. It's sitting at about 18-19 psi at idle once warmed up and maybe 38-40 cruising around. Interesting that another gent just had something similar recently.
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=20333.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=20333.0)
I'm relatively confident it's real given I have both the OEM and aftermarket gauges hooked up (one on the engine side, OEM on the accusump side). I'm not excited about pulling the oil pan to check that pickup o-ring, but shouldn't be too terrible. It's a fresh build from HKE and used a melling high flow high pressure pump so I expected it to be higher than before. Just about due for the first oil change so I'll keep tabs on the used oil as well. Are folks using Blackstone or someone else for oil analysis?
In the meantime, I did take it out to 65imp's local car show. Weird how random car guys give you a lot more love than our rotarded brethren ever will even if they're not talking it down to your face.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/DonutsNDrives.jpg)
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Hey Joel,
I used Blackstone. Rusty has some Blackstone oil sample containers, I can have him bring one next weekend if you use want to them. If you are running the Melling 10296, do you know what spring is in it - red or blue? The blue is for lower (stock like) pressure, and that is what I am running. What weight oil are you running in it?
With 20w50 I'm just under 50 PSI on cold start, at 30 or so at hot idle. Cruising is 55-60, towards redline it is at 90.
I don't know if you have an engine bay hoist.. If not I have one you can use. I used it when I had to pull the oil pan on mine, it makes the job less frustrating.
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I like Blackstone. They are about 5 minutes from my office! :)
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Yeah the Melling thing is kind of a big deal actually.
I know I will be running the HIGH PRESSURE pump when I eventually do my cam and front end. Specifically because with High-G loads I have had friends empty their oil pan with a high flow pump...which is no good.
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So close and yet so far...
Well, I think I've answered the question about how much power you can use on the street. The answer is: less than it takes to bite you in the ass and play Dukes of Hazard with your wife in the car.
---- Hint: this isn't going to be a happy post. :banghead: ----
So my wife and I trade babysitting with 65imp and his family every Thursday night. One couple gets to go out while the other couple watches the crazy kiddos. It’s pretty nice that I get to take out the RX7 with my bride with some decent regularity. I'd actually been driving the car quite a bit and I do love the thing so much. Having power steering again (Turn One) is great and it just loves being pitched in into corners. It's stupid fast. It's loud. I get a lot of thumbs up just about everywhere I go and I don't even have the hood painted yet.
I was literally in process of explaining the above to the Mrs. last Thursday, how I'm stoked on the car again, and when I get to the part about it being stupid fast I drop it into third and stand on it. I'm doing 50-55 mph or so on a divided/elevated frontage road merge thing. It proceeds to blow off the tires (this is with the taller 3:55 gears mind you) but instead of staying straight the back end snaps sideways HARD to the right. Not sure if it was because the road was a little off camber, dirty on one side or what.
It snaps back left and I do an involuntary lane change left, I'm counter steering the wheel for all I'm worth but can't save it. It's never bit me like this before.
The good news is that I manage to keep it straight enough that I avoid a K-rail on the left side (missed it by about 6 inches). The bad news is that the K-rail protected the elevated part of the road I'm on so just as I’m getting a handle on the fishtail I smack straight into a curb at a 45 degree angle and launch it off the side of the road, down about 3' to the lower lanes, and directly into oncoming traffic.
:wave:
We’re airborne, wife is screaming… I'm starring at not much but the ground on the road in front of me moment before I proceed to nose dive my way into the asphalt below. Miraculously no one hits us. It comes to rest. It's stalled and I'm now looking at the headlights of oncoming traffic (all of whom courteously have slowed to see what the hell is happening).
I try to start the car and it does, I suddenly envision myself explaining to the officer the exact circumstances upon which I lost control of the car and that's not a happy conversation with Johnny law. I flip a U-turn and start driving. No one hurt, no other parties involved, unknown damage but it's drive-able so I'm out, and at this point I don’t care if I’m on multiple flats...
Car starts heating up on the way home and I'm convinced I've blown my radiator. Still it's only 5 minutes away so we get there without further incident and it doesn’t overheat. One headlight won't close, so I leave them both up and park the car. Climb in the Jeep and head back out on date night, both pretty shaken but no ill effects.
Post Inspection:
Good news, I'm kind of amazed I didn't blow any tires. I knew the Weds had a reputation for being strong, especially given how light they are but DAMN. That's a quality wheel, no issues what so ever. Radiator heating up was a pinched sensor wire so no fan (both radiator and oil cooler scrapped the ground, neither punctured. Didn't smash the headers that I have a “I'm-never-doing-that-again” quantity of man hours into. Hood vs. fender gaps are OK. Still drove relatively straight so that's optimistic.
The bad news, I tore up the sheet metal around the headlight motor on one side. One frame rail has a long scratch in it under the middle of the car but the exhaust is all there. The headlight that won't go down is because I scrapped off the bottom of the motor.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes2.jpg)
At first glance the front lip looks like it’s done (understandably) but I actually might be able to glass it back together. Wishing I would have made a mold for the customized lip right about now. Small crack in one front fender but that’s an easy repair.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes1.jpg)
You can tell the angle I came in at due to how far up the lip pushed my tow hook (note the contact mark in the lip paint).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes3.jpg)
The core support has a little kink in it and is bowed in about an inch in the middle. In doing so it tore off one of the isolators on my radiator.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes6.jpg)
Headlights point at each other a bit so they’re rubbing the hood on both sides. Front bumper now has a zero gap the hood but that might be the sheet metal. I’m hoping the cross bar and frame rails are unaffected. Note the headlight vs. fender line (which seems straight enough the section of fender vs. hood).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes4.jpg)
Both rear mufflers contacted something on the way down. When doing Dukes of Hazard is it better or worse to clear the obstacle? Not sure.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes5.jpg)
So that’s my tale. Debating at the moment whether I cut the nose off a parts car I have stashed with my in-laws in Arizona or just say screw it and make a custom sheet metal. The later makes it that much easier to get the NSX headlights installed and to properly duct the radiator. The key question is going to be whether the frame stayed straight.
What’s the line, "bad decisions make good stories?" Should have installed the traction control… Shouldn’t been showing off for the wife at any kind of speed. I debated whether to stay mum on the subject since I’m kinda eating crow here but what the hell, I figure no rotors is all about the community and honestly it could have been a lot worse. I’m sure some folks have horror stories that put this to shame.
I’m pretty sure this is repairable, but the car was almost “finished…” and that sucks. Like I said, so close but so far.
-Joel
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Ugh, that's a terrible story Joel. I had a VERY close call in my MINI a couple months back. I was coming back from Nick's at like midnight after working on the car all day and half asleep. Came up on a buggy (we have Amish around here) at 70 mph (they go about 10...). I had to put the car into a drift (yes, in a MINI) to get around them and not ditch it or kill someone. It worked out, but it scared the hell out of me. We all make mistakes, glad this one turned out repairable and more importantly everyone unharmed.
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damn that sucks. glad nothing worse happened.
time for a tubular front end?
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That sucks Joel. I'm glad you and the wife are ok and the car is relatively intact. The panel alignment all looks ok though, so that is a plus. I'd pull the front end body parts all off and survey the damage, take some measurements to see how square the car still is, and possibly take it to a frame shop to get it checked out if it is too far off of square. It is probably repairable for a reasonable amount, especially if you do all of the disassembly, or decide to do it yourself.
Hopefully you just tore up the sheet metal around the core support.
We definately have to respect these cars. They can bite us.
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Glad to hear nothing serious happened.... We always forget about how we can get hurt and we think of the car first. Anything can be fixed not to worry, you'll soon forget all about it and the experience will make you better.
I had a bad experience myself, and it's funny because it always happens when you least expect it.
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Yeah that really sucks Joel. Done that myself and with the wife in the car :banghead: but luckily haven't hurt anything or anyone and have not caught air haha I would take it to a frame shop and have them check it first, won't cost much then you can make a more informed decision, IMO. Looks like everything will pull out and repair fairly easy from your pics. With high power cars its never a matter of if it will happen, its just when.
Wish I could help :cheers:
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Joel,
Thanks for convincing me I don't need more HP. Saved lots of $ and grief.
Steve
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Not gonna lie, many a lesser man would avoid telling a belittling story about themselves.
I was taught how to ride a motorcycle by a marine who made training his job after finding out motorcycles were killing more marines than enemies were.
His advice was "ride your own ride."
I find my greatest motorsports f-ups occur when I have competition, an audience, or God forbid a camera rolling...
Good on ya man for putting your name on it. The world is a better place with Mrs frijolee. And you are a decent dude too.
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Joel,
Glad to hear you and the Mrs are A OK ad that there were no pedestrians involved.
Your story flooded my memory from a very similar situation that occurred to me when I was a teenager in the early 70's. It was a major lesson to me about respect for power.
My dad was pretty deep into drag racing and we had several race only cars at the time. His daily driver was a 1971 Dodge Charger outfitted with a very stout 426 Hemi. 12.5:1 CR, BIG Cam, Single Holley Race Dominator in an Edelbrock Rat Roaster Manifold, 4.56:1 Dana rear etc. This was an auto 727 manual shifted and built by B&M. Very fast street car for the day.
I worked at his machine shop and would make pick up & deliveries in the company owned Datsun B210. One day - out of the blue he said -why don't you take the Charger. I think it was about 3 heartbeats later and I was already behind the wheel. I was having some fun until I pulled out onto the boulevard and jumped on it hard. Unfortunately, it was not quite pointing straight when I engaged full throttle and even though that was a pretty big car, the back end snapped around in about a micro-second as the rears broke loose. I spun a complete 360 and ended up on the median with all 4 wheels off the ground. No human injuries but the car had header damage, undercarriage damage and one of the rear aluminum centerline rims was broken and the Cheater slick on that rim was toast.
I gained a huge respect for power that day. My dad continued to allow me to drive the race cars at the track, but he never again let me get behind the wheel of any of his street cars.
Joel, thanks for the reminder that we all need to pay attention to what we are doing - especially when loved ones are in the car. That should hold true for any power level or vehicle we are in charge of.
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Thanks for the stories and encouragements. I don't think you can be a car guy without some kind of "my bad!" moment along the way.
I'm sure I can get it back and better than it was, just going to be a little work to get there. As mentioned the good news is that I'll get to tackle the nose ducting and trick headlights at the same time.
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Add some cool tube shit to the front end. :D You know you want to....
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Add some cool tube shit to the front end. :D You know you want to....
I see a ronin speedworks double wishbone FC front suspension kit in the works...
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Add some cool tube shit to the front end. :D You know you want to....
Sounds like a taste of my own medicine after a few of my comments your mustang thread. :yay:
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Add some cool tube shit to the front end. :D You know you want to....
I see a ronin speedworks double wishbone FC front suspension kit in the works...
Can I get an amen?!
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Well, I don't have full functional electrical in the new garage yet, but I at least have an attic built and lights done (going to need to update the garage build thread too) as well as a reasonably clear work space. That meant it was time to get back into the car project and I finally pulled the nose of the FC apart last night.
-Bumper cover may or may not be savageable (would need to work some new bottom side mounting as multiple points tore).
-Front lip is broken in half, but whole enough it's worth repairing since it matches my widebody.
-Will need a new passengers side headlight motor as the bottom of the motor scrapped ground.
-Some smaller plastic support parts and the lower sheetmetal pieces are trash (those which supports the limited ducting FC's use). I'm trying to decide if I hunt for a donor car or just replace wholesale with tube work.
Good news:
-Both fenders will be fine with very minor touch up work.
-Fender vs. hood line and both doors are still straight.
-No bent wheels (which is amazing to me). Thumbs up to Weds!
The only things that are really concerning are the headlights pointing at each other and the buckled top cross bar. That says some force went up and in and makes me not trust the current position of the main crash bar tied to the ends of the fender support rails since it's the load path to that core support.
I ran across a ASE training manual that looks pretty helpful.
http://people.okanagan.bc.ca/jfrancis/TTTE%20Autobody%20Day%20plans/Day%209%20-%20Structural%20Repair/Diagnosing%20Major%20Collision%20Damage%2010.pdf (http://people.okanagan.bc.ca/jfrancis/TTTE%20Autobody%20Day%20plans/Day%209%20-%20Structural%20Repair/Diagnosing%20Major%20Collision%20Damage%2010.pdf)
Anyone have suggestions on datums for measuring? Basically, I want to take enough measurements to figure out whether I'm taking this to a frame shop or not. Pictures of bitching front end tube work would be appreciated as well ;) albeit my minds not made up on that score.
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Make your life easy and drag home some donor parts, get the whole front end shiny and white again and enjoy your car :)
It might be worth just pulling off the front fenders as well if you haven't already, and take it to a frame shop and have them take a look. I can't imagine that being very expensive.. And you know a guy with a trailer.
Did you do any basic measurements yet with plumb bobs to make sure the car is still nice and square?
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Does anyone have the second gen bodyshop manual? I'm looking for this one:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/FD%20bodyshop%20manual.pdf (http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/FD%20bodyshop%20manual.pdf)
But for a 2nd gen.
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Does anyone have the second gen bodyshop manual? I'm looking for this one:
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/FD%20bodyshop%20manual.pdf (http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/FD%20bodyshop%20manual.pdf)
But for a 2nd gen.
There are bunch of body dimensions at the end of this one:
http://www.rotaryheads.com/PDF/2nd_gen/Mazda%20Service%20Manuals/1989-91%20Factory%20Service%20Manual/14_body.pdf (http://www.rotaryheads.com/PDF/2nd_gen/Mazda%20Service%20Manuals/1989-91%20Factory%20Service%20Manual/14_body.pdf)
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Good stuff Eage! I have that and I've even flipped through a few week back. However since 95% of it is parts related and the other gens have dedicated body shop manuals... I'd completely missed the dimensions at the end. I'm hoping this is exactly what I need.
Now to see how flat the floor of my garage is and break out the plumb bobs..
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Mostly good news from detailed measuring. Got the car all trued up relative to the floor and started taking measurements.
All suspension points and subframe locations are still true. Both frame rails are within an 1/8" of the proper elevations so it looks like the driver side just barely kissed the ground without doing anything significant which is great news. I am leaning toward cutting out the bits under the headlight (down by the engine splash guard) and just making a splitter to replace all that. Looks simple enough to me and I can duct the nose at the same time.
The lightweight sheet metal up top (that which supports the edge of the bumper skin) is clearly shifted sideways but looks easy to pull back... The last big piece that has me a little confused is a possible lateral shift in the in the main bumper bash guard. Looking at the sides of the frame rails they look true and appear to run straight fore/aft (or at least within an 1/8" or so). Yet the bumper beam itself has a pronounced shift of at about 1/2" toward the driver side.
Comparison shots with a straight edge down the outside of the fender locating seam. Note the differences in sheet metal and the FRP bumper beam.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/BumperLeftRight1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/BumperLeftRight2.jpg)
Anyone have the nose of their FC apart and able to take some reference shots for me?
Would appreciate it if possible.
-Joel
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Joel,
The front of my 87 is completely apart. I will shoot some pics for you - what do you want in particular?
Mine was hit at one point and repaired by the previous owner but looks OK for the most part.
Bill
OK - ran out and took a few. Let me know if you need others or something different. Ignore the black brackets on the front - I was about ready to bolt on the tow bar and take out for some work.
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A few more
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Thanks, Bill,
If you don't mind helping me investigate, I need to figure out how to measure the bumper beam mounting points vs. the centerline of the car. I don't want to impose but if you're willing I'd be interested in two specific requests (one's easier, one's more scientific).
1) Easy version, throw a straight edge up against the outside of each frame rail and take a picture of relative flatness. Let me know how long a straight edge you're using and I'll figure some way to duplicate on my end. I'm marking up a few of your pictures for reference.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EBDYmarkup1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EBDYmarkup2.jpg)
2) More scientifiic version:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EBDYmarkup3.jpg)
1) Find CL of the car by measuring front and rear most fender holes (green)
2) Drop a plumb bob (yellow) at the center of each and mark on the ground (orange)
3) Drop a plumb bob again at any reference point on the main bumper beam attachements (also yellow)
4) Measure against centerline (blue).
Open to suggestions if you (or others have) recommendations on alternate methods but that's what I've come up with for verifying the location of the bumper beam.
I think this should be symmetric, but the FSM body section only shows an elevation measurement for the bumper beam, nothing left right.
-Joel
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Bah, right after I posted this I figured out a simpler method for option 2.
Still involves plumb bobs but a little easier. Triangulation of measurements will still tell me if his is symmetric so I don't actually need a full on CL of car measurement.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/EBDYmarkup4.jpg)
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OK Joel - I will get on it early tomorrow morning and post the findings. I'm glad you came up with the simpler method
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Bill, Thank you kind sir. If it's too much to be climbing around under the car with a jacked up back, start with the straight edges and we'll go from there.
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Joel - See attached diagrams
Starting with Option 2 method I dropped 3 measurement points. #1 @ CL from two front fender mounting locations, #2 @ passenger side stud on bumper support and #3 @ Driver side stud on bumper support. On the two studs I actually ran the nut out a bit to a location in space a little past the end of the studs so the plumb line would clear the lip on the frame. In case you need it that dimension is .86" in front of the flat front of the bumper support. I then measured the following:
A = 19-3/4" (Passenger side)
B = 19-5/8" (Driver Side)
E = 28 -3/4" (Straight line distance between the two forward drop points)
I didn't like that it was off a little and after reviewing your OCD video I figured that you would want more data .... :P
So - I dropped two more points. #4 at the CL between the two large holes in front of the fender attachments nearest to the firewall. I could not use the fender attachment locations because that were past the firewall. #5 at the CL between the two studs on the bumper support.
I ran a line between #4 & #5 and measured the split distances of the dimension between the studs to get
C = 14 -7/16" (passenger side)
D = 14- 5/16 (driver side)
Also checked where the line passed in relationship to the #1 drop point and it was shifted about 1/8" from that drop point.
So - the drops might be a little off from exact, but I think that the measurements indicate that the bumper supports are symmetric about the car CL.
For the Frame rail check I used the edge of a 24" steel machinist ruler and rested against the lip on the bumper support and along the frame rail about 1" up from the lower lip. I could not get a decent picture, but it is safe to say that it was pretty flat with only minor variation of about 1/16" along the length of the ruler. Same result both sides.
Hope this gets you what you were looking for.
Bill
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Bill,
You're the man. It'll do. I couldn't see a good reason why the bumper wouldn't be symmetric. With your confirmation I'll make adjustments to get mine there.
MUCH appreciated.
-Joel
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Very cool stuff guys! Glad to see this isn't worse than it looks Joel, and Bill that's incredibly cool you came through like that. :cheers:
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+1 here for both, glad to see your getting back on it Joel. :cheers:
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Me too. I just couldn't touch it before I had my garage functional. I wasn't going to get both my HOA and new neighbors pissed by tearing into it on my drive way.
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Yeah you definitely do not want to start off on the wrong foot with the HOA and Neighbors. Establish a good relationship first and small things will be over looked and you'll be given some slack. Otherwise if you set it up right off the bat as the guy who ignores the rules every time you step over that line they'll be there to complain.
Glad you are getting to work though. I definitely need to put in the final push to have mine putter down the road.
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Not just no, but hell no!
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/brownwidowsFC.jpg)
Brown widows spiders (black widow cousin) made a nest and hatched on the back of my FC. This was waiting for me on the antenna.... This was the tightest cluster but I must have killed a 80-100 of them. Apparently I need to fix my car.
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Holy smokes Joel, I hope you bombed your garage after that. Any updates? :cheers:
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We have a lot more problems with the brown recluse than black widow around here, but both are pretty nasty. The brown widow isn't nearly as bad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrodectus_geometricus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrodectus_geometricus) "Like all Latrodectus species, L. geometricus has a neurotoxic venom that, drop for drop, is as toxic as the black widow's. However, brown widow bites are usually not very dangerous; usually much less dangerous than the black widow's. The effects of the toxin are usually confined to the bite area and surrounding tissue, unlike the black widow's. Mere toxicity of the venom is not the only factor in dangerousness. Brown widow bites are minor compared to black widow bites, because they cannot deliver the same amount of venom as the black widow."
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Spiders on the whole don't bother me, but if they choose to come into my house... well all bets are off. We mostly have wolf spiders around here (some recluse, too, but not as many), I shoo them out of the garage, but now and then one gets cocky. Not a wise life choice.
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I haven't read this build since it was on the V8RX7Club, but just found it again looking for some pics of the Ronin trans crossmember installed. I know it was a while ago now, but I'm happy to hear no one got hurt. It sounds like the sort of thing I could do showing off to the wife. I had a pretty close call one time just passing a slow car early in the morning, pulled a quick 3-4 shift and next thing you know my car was facing the drivers side of their car as I was passing sideways. Luckily there was enough road to pull it back straight and I went on my way, but it could have been a lot worse. Your post is really making me think about adding some sort of traction control. We had a baby girl last year and man does that change things, I would have never considered traction control a year ago.
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Finally getting into my repair, and looking for some parts:
I need:
-an excellent condition s5 bumper (white if possible)
-the factory wheel well duct pieces for both sides (they close out the bottom of the car on either side of the splash guard and peak out under the fender liners into the well).
-the close out bits that go around the headlight motors
-the rectangular black plastic vertical support that ties in the bottom edge of the bumper skin
-If you have a clean undertray/splash guard I'd take that as well.
If we ship I'd likely use Greyhound. I'd be picking up at the Santa Ana, CA station.
Thanks,
Joel
Sad FC needs love...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes2.jpg)
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The junkyard was kind to me last weekend. There was a 40% off New Year's sale going and Pick Your Part's website now lets you do a search of recent inventory additions so I knew there was a donor FC to be had close by. You have to check inventory store by store, but it's not too bad and sure beats going junkyarding blindly. http://www.lkqpickyourpart.com/locations/LKQ_Pick_Your_Part_-_Stanton-268/ (http://www.lkqpickyourpart.com/locations/LKQ_Pick_Your_Part_-_Stanton-268/) Only three of the dozen or so pick your parts in a 50 mile radius from me claimed they had S5 FCs... FD, you better find someone parting it because I've never seen one in a yard.
Showed up early on the first day of the sale and scored... I was actually surprised how quickly a battery powered sawzall made this happen. I got everything except the front bumper skin and main cross bar, but I think mine can be reused.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/RX7Donor.JPG)
Carrying this out of the yard by hand while lugging tools kinda sucked but I got it done. I'm going to send both car and donor nose to a local body shop. If anyone in SoCal needs a referral let me know: RC Empire in Orange has taken care of me on several things and I'm stoked on them. Heck, the owner made a house call to check out the RX7 on Saturday so we could talk options given I'm paying for this one. We made a plan that we'll have them put the structural parts back together like stock then then I'll redo the mods to make my custom parts fit once I know I'm back to a straight/true foundation.
I also spend a solid week, cleaning and organizing the garage over the holidays (let the family ditch me for in-laws), so as soon as the RX7 leaves, I'll paint the walls and pull the Land Cruiser in. Then maybe I can finally start catching up to @digitalsolo and his Mustang effort.
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See, these threats of progress make me motivated to get to work on my car. :D
Glad to see the RX7 will be living and breathing again soon.
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See, these threats of progress make me motivated to get to work on my car. :D
That's kind of the whole reason I offered the race! I've actually been making a ton of progress and working my ass off, but it's all things that needed to happen before I get back into the cars, (living room stereo wiring tucked instead of dangling, new computers setup, counter-tops sealed, Ronin filing, fixed a fence in a way that gives me RV access, big-ass cabinets painted since they were starting to rust). Oh man, when my dryer broke a week before the holidays I was so mad. I was successful in troubleshooting, ordering parts, and fixing it, but it was a couple hours on a day where that wasn't at all the project I wanted to be playing with.
The good news is that garage is in great shape and that including a bunch of organizing toolboxes and finding homes for things I've been tripping on for months. I don't think I've had this much space to work since I moved in.
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Before I bailed for China I dropped off the 7 at the body shop. Then I got stuck there for longer than I meant to so they held onto it for about 4 months. The good news is that the nose is already repaired.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/NoseRepair1.JPG)
Since getting back I already spend one Saturday redoing some of the modifications before paint (getting my intake tract to fit and what not). I'm going to have them paint the whole car. Goal is to get it back to daily driver status as fast as possible and then focus build efforts on the FJ40. Little helpers always appreciated.
Party on Wayne!
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Shattered Lip Repair
Ever do one of those jobs you're kicking yourself the whole time you're doing it, because you probably should have started over with something else? Yeah, this is one of those. Problem is that I just don't like very many of the lip options on the market (the Mazdaspeed version is only ok) and then I'd still have to cut it wider for my widebody. So I decided to stop waffling and just get to work.
Reminder:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/Dukes2.jpg)
Time to fix that. Pieces lined up better than I thought they would.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair1.JPG)
Little hot glue, pop-sickle sticks I stole from my kids, epoxy (etc), to hold it on the topside.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair2.JPG)
Dremel shave on the backside to clean up the fragments and give a fresh surface for more glass.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair3.JPG)
Re-glass:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair4.JPG)
Now I'm working on the topside grinding out all the cracks.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair5.JPG)
Thinking I may shim this down a 1/2" or so to change up the look a bit. More in harm's way, but it was already in harms way so not much new there. Plenty of work to go but that's progress. Hours vs. time not at all penciling out on this one, but at least it'll be something I'm ok with.
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Should've called me, we've got the one from the red car that was already widened for the flared fronts. You would end up being alot less itchy from all that nasty ass fiberglass. Why not just be a big baller and build a real splitter like the Mazcare car?
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Im happy to see this coming back together. :drive:
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Should've called me, we've got the one from the red car that was already widened for the flared fronts. You would end up being alot less itchy from all that nasty ass fiberglass. Why not just be a big baller and build a real splitter like the Mazcare car?
Bah, this just points out that it's been too long since we've caught up properly. I'm getting close so I think I'll stay the course, but I'll certainly hit you up if I smack the lip again (easy to do on parking curbs without actually screwing up the car. I debated a splitter but dammit, I want to drive this thing so that means making it more street car than race car. Part of the motivation is starting in the fall I have exactly one year of dropping of only one of my two daughters at school every day (1st grade while the other is in pre-school). Best chance to take a kid in a two seater every day.
Im happy to see this coming back together. :drive:
Me too.
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Progress:
Fender had a small crack so it got the re-glass treatment as well.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FenderReglass.JPG)
Bumper cover had a few tears so I decided to rework a few things up there as well. Started by cutting out the grill (planning woven metal for better rock protection)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/BumperShave1.JPG)
Rough cut done. Used heavy body seam sealer for some repairs. But what's all that black doing in the middle of the face? Who knows their FCs?
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/BumperShave2.JPG)
There wasn't a good reference line for the bottom cut at the angle I cut the grill out at, so I made a quick template as a reference for the shave.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/BumperShave3.JPG)
Filled the side voids with some more sealer backed up against non-stick tape.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/BumperShave4.JPG)
Tear repairs.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/BumperShave5.JPG)
Spent a healthy piece of Saturday at the body shop doing nose modifications. Cross bar shaved and brackets moved.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/NoseRepair2.JPG)
Adding and deleting holes in the upper core support. I used a Harbor Freight copper Welding Spoon (http://www.harborfreight.com/welding-spoon-66785.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/welding-spoon-66785.html)) to back up the holes I was filling. Kudos to www.weldmonger.com (http://www.weldmonger.com) for the tip.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/NoseRepair3.JPG)
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...shaving the Mazda logo you are...
Progress looks great!
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...shaving the Mazda logo you are...
Progress looks great!
Was there was ever a question about you knowing your FCs? :cheers:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/BumperShave6.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/BumperShave7.JPG)
Finished all my work at the body shop last night (they normally work till 7:00 but a stayed open until almost 8:00 last night so I could finish). Classy, classy, classy. The shop is RC Empire Auto Body in Orange CA if any of my SoCal brethren need a referral. Love these folks... It's a Mom and Pop (and Sons) shop, but damn they do outstanding work and they're just good people.
Haven't seen this view looking straight and sexy in a long time.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/NoseRepair4.JPG)
So now it's out of my hands. Unfortunately in the process of making repairs. I discovered that my base coat isn't sticking well to the primer from back when I painted it, might have used the wrong temp product or incorrect ratio of reducer or... who knows really. They're going to have to sand down through that though (or chip it off) so this will take a bit. Blocking and sanding estimated to take about a month.
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Nice work Joel, glad to see you pushing forward again :cheers:
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Should be into primer shortly, they're getting mighty close.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RCEmpirePaint1.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RCEmpirePaint2.JPG)
Threw on the gas tank door extension I made a long time back so they could at least fair out the fender to match the lines. Still need to figure out how to make the pop mechanism work but I think that can be done after the fact if I'm careful.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RCEmpirePaint3.JPG)
Ironically, they had just taken in another FC for paint. Haven't seen a stock one getting love in a while. Gotta wonder what he thought of me. :halo:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RCEmpirePaint4.JPG)
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Im glad its getting some love. Your car made me want to build mine! :popcorn:
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Im glad its getting some love. Your car made me want to build mine! :popcorn:
Thanks, I'm glad too. I basically had to hit the point of acknowledging I have less time than I have money. That's not to say I'm rolling (far from it), but still there's less time than dinero. That means having others do stuff for me.
My deal with RC Empire (body shop) worked out great because they let me come in and do a few things on my own, so I'm not paying them to figure out things which I had modified.
It was fully blocked and in primer as of a week and half ago. Should be coming out any day now.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RCEmpirePaint5.JPG)
I went a little crazy with the seam sealer, but figured it was the right time to do so.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RCEmpirePaint6.JPG)
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Hah, I'm seam sealer CRAZY on the Mustang. It looks like BMW seams if you've seen them. Me no likey rust.
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(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RCEmpirePaint7.jpg)
:yay:
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Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny.
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I'm putting the nose of my FC back together and would likely some commentary on bundling the wiring. Two questions:
1) Presently I have a 1/0 power cable running through a 250 A breaker (with apologies to Speedfab) then direct to the starter. The starter uses double stacked terminals as a node and heads back out via 4 AWG around in front of the radiator to the FC's power distribution fuse block (the big 7 fuse jobbie). My question is regarding this 4 AWG run around the nose: The lug on the starter is kinda hard to get to with headers in. On disassembly I undid the 4 AWG cable at the fuse block. Now that I'm putting it back together I'm wondering if it's unwise to have it bundled together with all the other wiring up front. I need to rewrap the harness across the nose and it'd be a bit cleaner to just let it all run in a single chunk of corrugated tubing. Should I be concerned at all about cross talk running power cable in a bundle with all my relay wiring for the first couple feet? Never noticed an issue, but I'm thinking about it. Future maintainability goes up a touch if I run it separately, but it not a huge difference and the bay is cleaner with it bundled... What would you do in my shoes?
2) I've had some issues supplying fan power to my dual Spals, pulling power straight off that same main fuse block. I previous had some resistance in the spade connectors to fuses that resulted in burned fuses (not blown, burned from the resistance at the connection). I've since buttered it up with dielectric grease which seemed to cure things but I don't quite know where that's a "done done done" fix or whether it's still likely to be a bit marginal. Have others had success running a healthy fan load off this fuse location? Should I say screw it and throw in a fusible link instead? I'm leaning toward assuming the dielctric is enough but thought it was worth posting up for some commentary.
Thanks,
Joel
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I run my fans off of the black wire that goes to the interior from that fuse terminal with no issues. I run one relay per fan, single speed. You could run an individual power run from separate fuses on the fuse block too.
I've never had a problem with my setup.
I'd throw the power wire in the bundle and call it good.
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If I were starting from scratch I'd do like you have. However, I was coming off my Volvo single fan and had the DC Control FK-35 box already so I've been running that. I love the PWM soft start functionality, but it means I have to feed both fans from a single power source. To be fair, I need to repair the sensor lead on my FK-35 and if that turns out to be a pain to solder, I might still fish wires from the ECU to run relays.
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I guess I should measure what the amp draw is when these fans start. My guess is that your greasing may solve the issue. Those old terminals can get oxidized as you know. With the correct gauge wire I think you'd be ok.
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1 - I'm running my wiring very similar to yours, but I'm running my wire from the starter up the frame rail to the fuse block. you probably don't have the header clearance to do this, but might be able to run it up the trans to the firewall and across the pinch weld or something. *shrug*
2 - I'm running dedicated fused and relayed wires from my circuit breaker up the passenger side of the car for my dual spal fans. I haven't had any problems with fuses.
I'm also running both my oil cooler fan and my surge tank fuel pump (walbro 416) off the same main lug on the fuse block that the starter connects to with inline fuses, also no problems
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I'm putting the nose of my FC back together and would likely some commentary on bundling the wiring. Two questions:
1) Presently I have a 1/0 power cable running through a 250 A breaker (with apologies to Speedfab) then direct to the starter. The starter uses double stacked terminals as a node and heads back out via 4 AWG around in front of the radiator to the FC's power distribution fuse block (the big 7 fuse jobbie). My question is regarding this 4 AWG run around the nose: The lug on the starter is kinda hard to get to with headers in. On disassembly I undid the 4 AWG cable at the fuse block. Now that I'm putting it back together I'm wondering if it's unwise to have it bundled together with all the other wiring up front. I need to rewrap the harness across the nose and it'd be a bit cleaner to just let it all run in a single chunk of corrugated tubing. Should I be concerned at all about cross talk running power cable in a bundle with all my relay wiring for the first couple feet? Never noticed an issue, but I'm thinking about it. Future maintainability goes up a touch if I run it separately, but it not a huge difference and the bay is cleaner with it bundled... What would you do in my shoes?
2) I've had some issues supplying fan power to my dual Spals, pulling power straight off that same main fuse block. I previous had some resistance in the spade connectors to fuses that resulted in burned fuses (not blown, burned from the resistance at the connection). I've since buttered it up with dielectric grease which seemed to cure things but I don't quite know where that's a "done done done" fix or whether it's still likely to be a bit marginal. Have others had success running a healthy fan load off this fuse location? Should I say screw it and throw in a fusible link instead? I'm leaning toward assuming the dielctric is enough but thought it was worth posting up for some commentary.
Thanks,
Joel
1 -- Bundle it, I have pretty much always do this on vehicles I wire and have never had a interference issue.
2 -- I had my fans tied into that same fuse block for years with no issues, fuse to relays to fan, controlled by the pcm - dual Spal's as well. I think the grease solved the connection problem you were having.
Now where are the rest of the pictures!!! :cheers:
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Thanks for the advice...
Not a lot of pictures until I get the nose put back together (which I'm doing). Looks like I have one challenge to get through first though. My headlights seem to be aligning really poorly.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment1.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment2.JPG)
It's almost like the upper core support cross bar the cut out of the donor nose, turned into a rainbow before they installed it on my car. Then a 1/8" high position at the mount point results in almost 1/4" out of position at the corners. From what I can tell there's almost no adjustability built into the headlight cover (like maybe +/- 3/32" at each corner of the upper skin). I could carve up the structure but I'm a bit worried about screwing up some pivot alignment since there's so many joints involved.
Thoughts?
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A couple well placed whacks with a mallet and some wood and/or some adjustment of the mounting holes with a dremel. You can run the headlights up and down manually with the knobs on the motors to check for interference.
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the brace probably warped when they welded it in... I support hitting it with a hammer :P
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Thanks for the advice...
Not a lot of pictures until I get the nose put back together (which I'm doing). Looks like I have one challenge to get through first though. My headlights seem to be aligning really poorly.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment1.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment2.JPG)
It's almost like the upper core support cross bar the cut out of the donor nose, turned into a rainbow before they installed it on my car. Then a 1/8" high position at the mount point results in almost 1/4" out of position at the corners. From what I can tell there's almost no adjustability built into the headlight cover (like maybe +/- 3/32" at each corner of the upper skin). I could carve up the structure but I'm a bit worried about screwing up some pivot alignment since there's so many joints involved.
Thoughts?
How is the bumper cover alignment? I would hang that just to see what's going on. I had to slot my covers ears to get things to come into alignment, along with that you can adjust the main headlight frame quite a bit before you run into bind on the adjusters as they are spherical ends. Headlight mounting has 4 main points - two up on the top of the rad support at the back of the light and two studs down on the face of the rad support, should be able to shim as needed, minus the BFH :cheers:
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Quick markup of a shot I took earlier to help describe this a bit more.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment3.jpg)
The one note says "had to notch these vertically" but the resize made it hard to read.
It'll be hard to BFH the upper mount point down since the new cross bar is spot welded along the length on the vertical backing plate underneath, but I might need to... The BFH also sucks because that cross bar is so pretty and I'm going to marr it to hell even using wood. The new crossbar is probably double the thickness I had before (it came from a vert which I'm guessing is the reason why). I think I can get a touch out of the headlight frame since the mount point is on a slightly raised boss vs where the actual inside pivot is (the point driving the cover position).
I've reached out to the body shop to see what the say...
I can shim if I manage to BFH too far, but I don't think shims help me without use of the hammer to drive the upper inner mount points down first.
Good point on fitting the bumper cover. I'll try that out for comparison.
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Agreed. Definitely fit the bumper cover before you do anything.
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another thing you can try instead of a big hammer is to bolt some bar stock to the holes and try to twist the brace to lower the rear holes.
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Good idea. You are not that far off Joel. If the bumper goes on and lines up reasonably well I think you'll just need a couple adjustments
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You can definitely tweak the cover mounting holes a bit also. More like 1/8" up and 1/8" down if you slot the hole slightly. :)
I'm in agreeance about adjusting the body mounting points with a bolt on plate + bar. AFTER you validate bumper fitment. Whatever you do, don't forget to lubricate with profanity!
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Couple shots of test fitment with bumper cover. It was kinda hard to hold this in place and snap pictures, so some of the issues that look like gaps are more like elevation changes needed. Certainly have some work to do though.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment4.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment5.JPG)
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XJ is back on the road, excellent camping/wheeling trip done, got it smogged.
FJ40 Black Friday shopping plans complete.
Must be time to get back to the RX7...
I'm heading some advice given here that my headlight adjustments should really be done with the bumper mounted. While I'm puzzling over the lights I figured it might as well mount the bumper for real and that mean working on the mesh grill I had planned. It's 1/16" woven SS wire on something like 5/16" squares (per a Carroll Smith book recommendation). I must have bought this stuff from McMaster 3 years ago and it's been sitting in my side yard since. It still looks mint, so that's a good sign regarding corrosion properties. FWIW this was 3 square feet of mesh sized 48" x 9" (have to ask for the specifically or they will try to send you a 3' x 1' piece. Ask me how I know :banghead:).
I was worried about the edges fraying as I formed this over the edges so I decided to see if I could TIG it. (Macro shot with torch for scale)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill1.JPG)
Answer is yes, but took some practice to get consistent and stop blowing through. Best technique I found was to start on a upper strand directly, add a couple dabs of 0.030 filler to then pull the puddle down to the lower wire just before the upper puddle collapses. I did about every 4th strand laid out on the perimeter I had planned. The above was me about to rip the big sheet into three pieces (hence welded both sides of the cut).
Here it is roughed out.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill2.JPG)
And just like that it forms in nicely!
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill3.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill4.JPG)
No, not just like that, in fact NOT AT ALL "just like that" but hey this is the internet and we all live vicariously through the methodical slavery of others right? Actually, forming wasn't too bad, just time heavy with a great deal of hammering over the edges of my weld table and some scrap clamped in a vice. Well that and 50+ test fits... Fine tuning done with standard pliers. It was a damn good grip workout, particularly cutting stray strands in the corners with clippers. The bigger cuts were ripped with an angle grinder. That said, the welding worked great so I was stoked on that...
Here's what it should look like... (Now is kinda my last chance to abort)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill5.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill6.JPG)
For install I was planning on just doing a healthy perimeter run with more heavy body seam sealer (3M 8308), but before I do... Can anyone sell a reason I wouldn't want to bond this in permanently? I could just hit it in spots so I have potential to cut it back out and/or through bolt the perimeter...
Only things I can come up with thus far are:
-I damage it somehow and need to replace it (possible, particularly with a tow hook protruding through)
-It totally screws my airflow to the radiator (unlikely)
-Harder to repaint down the road (not a huge deal)
Since I found I only had half a tube of seam sealer I figured it was worth posting up while the order comes in.
-Joel
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Looks great! Don't mount it permanently for all the reasons you mentioned. I use safety wire or zip ties. Get busy and finish the traction control so you dont end up having to re-do everything!
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Im not a fan of it in silver. Maybe hidden better if its black. :secret:
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If I could get it to stay black I'd consider it... Problem is I just don't trust paint / powder / plasti-dip to hold up well enough long term when it's getting rocks thrown at it. I am thinking I'll go black on the lip to drive your sight line down.
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Plastidip will hold up well and be easy to touch up if you wanted to go black.
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Looks good! I agree with Charliem just use zip ties or none permanent method of some sort. I use circle track honey comb so I can replace it regularly.
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If I could get it to stay black I'd consider it... Problem is I just don't trust paint / powder / plasti-dip to hold up well enough long term when it's getting rocks thrown at it. I am thinking I'll go black on the lip to drive your sight line down.
Have you looked into Black Oxide Coating ?
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Thanks for pushing me to make this removable fellas. Took a bit to figure out how to do it, since I just couldn't bring myself to drill holes all around the perimeter. I also wasn't very keen on showing zip ties, but I had very little backside depth to play with (since I'd already formed the grills) so I had to get creative. I ended up combining my original plan for seam sealer bonding with both safety wire and zip ties.
Started with 32 carefully formed safety wire Jesus fish.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill7.jpg)
Bonded these in with seam sealer at evenly spaced positions. Thorough cleaning of all surfaces prior. I even wiped down my fish.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill8.jpg)
Recruited a helper with tiny fingers.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill9.jpg)
Seems to have worked out well. You really can't see the zip ties since they tuck just around the corner in each position.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/FCMeshGrill10.jpg)
Have to post finished shots when installed (which is being a PITA because all my holes are just slightly off). I'm leaving it the grills silver for now, but we'll see if I like it on the car.
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great idea!
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Well, the headlight misalignment thing sucked but I finally solved it. Certainly a game of mm.
I ended up cutting out about a 1/4" section on the main lid pivot. That's about as far as you can go without it crashing. Checking it while tacked showed I was on the right path.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment6.jpg)
Then had to shorten the linkages for the side I just dropped down or it would bind up while articulating. Overdid it a smidge on one side and got to sleeve the tube to reweld.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment7.jpg)
Then some portions of the inner framework were just barely interferring and rubbing so I got to clearance and massage some more (and some more... and some more yet).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment8.jpg)
It's not by much but this is the structure landing below the surface I needed it to...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment9.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/HeadlightMisalignment10.jpg)
So we're calling that winner winner chicken dinner. Land cruiser is looking lonely back there but it's stack of parts is ever growing and the RX7 is getting close.
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FC is looking great Joel. Don't let that Land Cruiser sit too long, a case of Sprecher's root beer sounds good this fall. ;)
Seriously though, it's a ton of work getting it all dialed in just so. Nice work.
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Ha, roger that.
I'm trying to avoid the "just so" approach on the FJ. I have a ton of the planning completed just gotta get to it. By the way, here's that edge trim on the radiator I mentioned a while back.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RadiatorEdgeTrim1.JPG)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RadiatorEdgeTrim2.JPG)
-Joel
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Yup, stealing that idea for sure.
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FWIW I think the trim above was made by TrimLok...
While I had the nose in the air I made progress on a few other fronts as well.
Resoldered the radiator temp sender wiring I pinched against the ground on re-entry. It was hard wired to a thermocouple so I repaired what I had. Some of the smallest soldering I've ever done: 26 maybe 28 gauge? Finally got to use some of my smallest heat shrink (that stuff that comes in the multi pack that they give you miles of yet is too small for just about anything? Yeah, that stuff).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/RadTempSenderRewire.JPG)
Decided to drop my front lip down 3/4". Also helped with some structural repair. Spacing down with some cabinet grade plywood that I'll seal up.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair6.jpg)
Using ProSet 175/273 composite glue (good stuff I discovered while working composites in China this past spring)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair7.jpg)
And then locking it in with about every midsize c-clamp owned by myself or @65imp.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/MazdaSpeedLipRepair8.jpg)
All that's left is to smooth it out with some filler, drill mounting holes and paint. We'll see if this drives me batty scraping on stuff, but I think it'll look clean and at least somewhat help balance when I run a wing. Contemplating black for the lip for some contrast.
Finally, I upgraded my harnesses with some nice lightly used Sparco 6 Points.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/6PointSparcos.jpg)
I really dig that the buckle is on the submarine straps so I shouldn't have the same tendency to ride up that my prior harnesses did (I was running them as 4 points and never gotten around to installing the sub belts.
Still to do:
-Finish wiring headlights and buttoning up nose.
-Integra speedo mod (sold my cable-x box while the car was down)
-Adjust one tailpipe position
-Install new battery
-Fluids
After it's running:
-Rework fuel door pop
-Traction control!!!!
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That is a boatload of c clamps, haha.
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Finally, I redid my relocation for the brake distribution block AKA proportioning valve. You need to do something with this or it'll conflict with the coil.
(http://sites.google.com/site/bringthepaynes/CIMG3668Medium.JPG)
Bending the tab out about 100 degrees appears to work well it's just some work getting all the hardlines bent nicely. You can see my dangling speedo cable waiting for that cable-x box I'm still sitting on too. That whole statement about don't start driving it until it's done done done or you won't get it finished...
It's true.
Thank you.
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So many C-Clamps!
I fought for quite a while with headlight lids. When I had my miata they were a pain in the ass as well. So hard to know how to tweak the mounting tabs to move the lid correctly. I ended up just solid mounting my headlights up, and when I end up doing track days and don't want them 'up' I'll put an extra hole on my mount to put them in a dropped position. Glad you got yours to sit well though.
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What's up y'all? Haven't been posting much, but have been working on the projects plenty... I'll get around to updates at some point I promise.
At the moment the RX7 drives fine, but it has some little piddly stuff I want to track down before it goes back to full daily status (my goal).
-Finish lip repair and paint that.
-Re-align headlights (it was perfect until I put power to them and they sucked down a 1/4")
-Functional gauges, screwed something up attempting Integra speedo mod and need to troubleshoot.
-Maybe new seats. Covers are coming loose on mine. Anyone know anything about replacement covers on fiberglass buckets. Heard a rumor that was a thing at one point.
-Diagnose a hot start issue. Behaves like vapor lock, cranks but only coughs and won't fire until it's sat for 10 minutes. Annoying at gas stations (well that and the lack of a fuel gage is annoying too.
-Want to double check the alignment. It gets a bit squirrelly on hard throttle
Longer term:
-That damn traction control box needs to get installed. :halo:
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Joel, you could have something ignition related going on with hot starts...maybe coils getting heatsoaked? Could also be too lean when hot and cranking. Do you have any logs?
I have seen sparco fiberglass seats recovered, any good upholstery place should be able to do it. They also have replacement bezels for the harness slots since normally they break during removal
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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Hmmm, I have a spare set of coils but I'm not sure I can swap them in fast enough to make for a meaningful test. Ice down the outsides?
The car is running a bit hotter with the Evan's coolant than prior. It seems to find equilibrium at about 210-215F if I'm stuck in traffic. Moving it's better and rarely breaks 190F.
The fact that it's noticeably different moving vs still makes me wonder if my radiator fan is seeing voltage drop via a poor connection somewhere and not doing all it should.
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Hmmm, I have a spare set of coils but I'm not sure I can swap them in fast enough to make for a meaningful test. Ice down the outsides?
The car is running a bit hotter with the Evan's coolant than prior. It seems to find equilibrium at about 210-215F if I'm stuck in traffic. Moving it's better and rarely breaks 190F.
The fact that it's noticeably different moving vs still makes me wonder if my radiator fan is seeing voltage drop via a poor connection somewhere and not doing all it should.
That is a big drop when moving. It would be interesting to use a heat gun on the coils after it has been sitting with the hood down. I wonder if the coolant temp forces the closed TPS fueling into some cells that need refinement. I would see if the starting problem is dependent on coolant temp or underhood temp, but that may be hard to definitively figure out
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i have a feeling california frowns on this but if it were me id try driving around in the same manner with the hood off for a bit and see the differences
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Just mostly fixed my gauges. Big write up specific to the Integra speedo addition into an s5 here:
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=6598.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=6598.0)
More chatter on the Integra mod originally here:
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=199.0 (http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=199.0)
Not going to replicate all that. Brass tacks though here's my setup.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/S5IntegraSpeedo26.jpg)
With one important addition I missed when I first did this.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/S5IntegraSpeedo27.jpg)
I am getting some cross talk to my tach. Speedo signal is wired to Red 55 (VSS out) on my 98 F-body PCM. Feel free to chime in here or there if you have thoughts on troubleshooting.
Oh, and my running hot issue is probably a bad thermocouple for my DC control FK-35 fan controller. It's seeing 14.4 V in, but only putting out about 4-5V despite the radiator being 205 degrees. I had repaired the lead following my off road adventure a while back and something isn't right. Best guess that tripping up the coils when the engine gets toasty. Had it throw a couple codes today that sounded like a bad coil pack on #4.
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I sorted out my speedo/tach cross talk problem. The ECU started throwing a code P0354 "Ignition Coil D Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction"
A, B, C, D align to cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. I confirmed cylinder 4 was dead. I thought the getting hot issues I'd been having had finally cooked a coil so I swapped two coils to check. Nope, the problem stayed with #4.
Huh... Pulled off my coil pack mounting to be sure I didn't have something obvious like a wire rubbed through. That looked fine and the sub harness had continuity in all the right places. So I checked the driver signal to different coils using the AC setting on a multimeter. Car runs damn rough on 6 cylinder when you unplug a good one but it stayed running. Good coils measured about 0.3 V AC. The dead coil was only measuring 0.04 V which I assume was just noise. Next step would logically be to check continuity back to the ECU, so I look up the pinouts.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/Pin55vsPin57.jpg)
Ignition coil #4, Drk Green and White wire, pin 57...
This is about the time lightbulbs went on for me. Anyone else solve it?
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I may have done something similar on a harness I built for a customer, except I flipped TPS and a coil signal I think. They were very understanding of my dipshittery.
Have I mentioned how much I like labeled wires, as opposed to just colored.
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DAMN! :banghead:
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This one is a "making lemonade" kinda post.
I made a last minute call and rolled out to SevenStock 20 yesterday. It's always fun to be a heretic at the massive gathering of all things rotary. Like usual, it was kinda of a last minute flog to get the car ready but that's fine, I can wash a car after dark under lights. Getting the speedo and gauges sorted has me a bit more ready to drive this a bit and I'm feeling OK about being an hour down the road. So long as I get there early enough I should be parked in queuing lot long enough such my hot start issues shouldn't be a problem.
I arrive no problem, even had a fun impromptu caravan on the way in with a good looking RX8. But then the line into the place is LONG, takes me 15 of minutes of idling in the sun to get parked as it's already warm on the asphault. It didn't help that my tune decided to freak out and idle at 1,500 with the occasional blip to 2,000 instead of 800. Car's reading 215 water and about 210 oil when I shut it down, but it wasn't getting hotter so it's not like this is runaway... Nice things said about the car while waiting. I pop the hood for a couple folks and shoot the breeze (and to try to let it cool faster). We go to pull out. Won't start. Coughs... Tries...
Will. Not. Start.
So now I'm I'm the asshole who believes in the reliability of these things and I'm stuck. FUCK me. I'm frustrated. I'm embarrassed. I don't even want to be at this event anymore. Nothing to do but let it cool off all the way. At least I can leave early and don't have to wait until the better end. I didn't actually want to be there the whole time as it was. Sacrificing a full Saturday is a big commitment.
I walk around a bit but most hang out with the Lucky 7 crew. They're all hardcore rotary folks, but also good friends. I make some apologies for my car being outside but no one cares it's just smiling faces and lot of stories. Had a guy remind me of when I got pulled over racing crotch rocket. :halo: All in, hanging out generally redeems my morning a bit catching up with folks.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/SevenStockXX1.jpg)
I even manage to catch a ride in Henry's FD (bad ass car and he likes to hang tail more than @largeorangefont, which is saying something).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/SevenStockXX2.jpg)
Anyways, I'm craving breakfast burritos and I have some kick ass chili peppers a coworker gave me at home. It's only a touch after 1:00 so I'm planning to high tail it down the road. Pack up at the car and go to crank it. Barely a hiccup. Will not start. Crap. It appears my intermittent defect has become permanent. On the one hand that might help finally find the problem, but did I have to be an hour from home when I needed a tow truck? I ran out the door trying to get here on time so I didn't bring tools. Some guys in a Jeep drinking beer in the lot hear it trying and come lend a hand. Love the Jeep people.
Seems to have plenty of battery so I'm focusing on fuel. I'm not hearing the fuel pump prime, but it's not that loud. It really was behaving like vapor lock but the times I've checked I always had fuel pressure. Have one of my helpers watch the fuel pressure gauge and we confirm it's reading zero. OK, problem is definitely fuel... Check all the fuses but they're fine. Pop of the fuel access cover with my leatherman but the wiring looks fine. A Walbro 400 pulls about 15 amps at 58 psi, so it might not be a bad idea to do a better bulkhead at some point, but it looks OK.
It's been what? 11 years since I wired this car but I swear I remember repurposing one of the relays up front. I know I ditched the FC resistor relay BS and by this point I've downloaded key sections of the FSM to my phone. Naturally none of the colors match anymore but we're not getting any of the relays up front clicking when I turn the key.
We pull the connectors on all 4 relays and finally find something suspicious...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolees/SevenStockXX3.jpg)
Yep. Apparently the problem was a marginal relay that didn't like getting hot.
Bonus, I got lucky in that the relay I blew was the only one with a common pinout to another one I had wired. Not 100% sure what subsystem I disabled for the drive home but I didn't exactly need headlights and the engine cranked. Given the parking lot troubleshooting had been another hour and half I was so ready to be gone. Better yet, I avoided calling in a tow truck, got her home in 1 piece, and low and behold now she cranks over hot. The blown relay? Rated at 22 amp, so I assume the connection just got a little crusty and between the relay running hot, the car running hot-ish, it was too much.
Fighting my way be to street car/daily driver status hasn't been easy and I'm not done yet, but after a overall painful /frustating day--yes, some good moments in the middle to be sure--it felt REALLY good to come out ahead at the end of the day.
Oh, and I'm really curious if one reason this has been so hard to tune was some variable voltage drop across that damn relay. Gotta see on that one, but I'm hopeful. :halo:
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Glad it was something simple, time to rewire your fuel pump relay! Straight to the battery and a good relay... :cheers:
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I've been slowly replacing the old Mazda relays with Bosch-style SPDT relays one by on as they die. It's crazy how much corrosion they have inside while still ticking away...
I have a couple boxes of cheap Amazon relays on a shelf, everything from the LS harness to the electric fans to the high beams to the fuel pump running off one of them.
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Nice Joel. I wish I could have made it up to run my car or at least hang out. I don’t think I’ve ran with Henry on the track since he had his FC!
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Definitely get rid of all the extra wiring, and install a good relay out back, with short #10 or #12awg wiring to the pump.
It doesn't hurt to add an inertial switch for safety either.
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Tracking down more stuff on the rx7. Some good news, some not so good.
-20w50 gives me happier oil pressure (~25-27 psi for a hot idle)
-Fixed two oil leaks (note to self, don't use Redhorse Performance AN fittings again)
-Merge collectors also like to leak. Wonder if this is part of why the car doesn't like tuning. Buttered up the leaky slip with nickle anti-seize per a suggestion from Anthony (v8-rx7) which seems to have helped.
-Compression measures nice and solid across the board. Bunch of 205 psi's a peak of 225 on one cylinder and 230 on another.
-Reclocked my steering rack which I'd had off forever (straightened the wheel but got off the correct spot for turn signal cancel).
-Found and fixed a vacuum leak up top too.
-Accusump electric check valve isn't opening so that needs some love.
-Bad news, still doesn't want to idle well when cold. Still smells like gas driving around, so I don't really trust it at WOT. Well that and the tires grip isn't there anymore. Just waiting for new wheels to come in so I can order up the NT01s.
-I really need to get this on a dyno and tuned but I'm trying to be sure I have the basics sorted before I do so.
-Still need to properly redo my fuel pump relay setup.
Thoughtful contemplation of the evening: What would make one cylinder run hotter than one next to it? In shooting the headers with a temp gun on the even bank, (2-4-6-8) at steady state idle I see the first three in the 300-400 range, cylinder 8 at 700 deg F. That cylinder does have a tighter bend radius off the head and it is furthest from any cooling from the radiator fan blowing over it all. Still, that's a big jump. This was the driver for the compression test above, a test where everything looked fine. Spark looks fine I checked the cylinders reading cooler. Plugs all read similar.
I'm debating sending off my fuel injectors to get cleaned (likely RC Fuel Injectors). I've never done that and I got them used. The car also sat for more than a year at one point. I could swap injectors around to check but that's a bit of a mess to make twice over. Anything else I should be looking at? Presently running Seimens Deka 60 lbers. Anyone ever done there own injector cleaning? I'm leaning toward the pay service but it's $25 a piece so about what I paid for all these in the first place. I could just about buy remans for what I'll spend cleaning these. It's also crap timing since my Jeep is down at the moment too. At the same time I really don't like driving the car with it running poorly. @65imp let my borrow his Buell this week. Solid bro move, but I need to get my *ish in a line stat. Am I way over thinking this?
Apologies as I meant to post a stack of pics to go with this but it's late, and google tells me I've exceeded my capacity. Yay!
Suggestions appreciated none-the-less.
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I'd say it almost has to be an injector. That type of variance from cylinder to cylinder shouldn't be happening, different bend radius or otherwise. Is it that far off after light/normal driving?
I've had a couple sets of injectors cleaned. My Lucas 120 lbs units I tried to do myself (pressured mineral spirits and pressurized brake clean + pulsing the solenoid). No improvement, until I sent them in, then they were like new. I think they replaced the filter disks, too.
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I agree with Blake. Injectors are the likely culprit and RC is as good as they come. Install them as soon as they come back as the chemical cleaner does not sit around well on the injectors. Have a look at mode 6 data on scanner and monitor misfires. It could lead you to the problem cylinder. Fuel smell could be from the type of line you are using. Found out that Aeroquip startlite hose weeps fumes. Changed over to teflon lined -6 and no more fumes. Also make sure the injector connectors are actually tight fitting. I chased an issue on the race car that showed same kind of temp results on header pipes. You are chasing your tail without a good scanner and some data to look at.
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Agreed with Blake and Charlie. RC is local and will likely turn them around in a couple hours. Get them cleaned professionally. It is not worth the risk at this point, especially with the issues you have noted and the money and time you have spent. The leaky collector could affect closed loop tuning, but not open loop stuff. But if you have injector issues it will never tune right.
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I just gotta say how much I appreciate you guys. When you're tired and posting a question at 1 something in the morning and a response comes in quick enough for me to rip them out and get them off before work...
It makes the heart warm and fuzzy. Car people is good folks. Thank you amigos.
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So let's say theoretically you overdid an offset too far outboard on a set of front wheels. What tricks do you have for getting the tire size you really want to run, back under the fenders?
Thus far I've come up with...
-More negative camber (bah)
-Change tires ($$)
-Change wheels ($$$)
-Raise it so you don't rub in the first place (bah)
-Don't hit bumps at high angle of steering (unrealistic)
-Shave down wheel mounting pad (less meat to the lug nuts makes me nervous)
-Shift your suspension mount points inward (lots of work)
-Modify your control arms (???)
I don't really like any of the above, but I'm toying with modifying the control arms. I'm running s4 arms, so I'd basically be welding plugs into the replaceable ball joints then re-drilling holes shifted over. Anyone want to convince me this is a terrible idea? I have enough space I could shift my coil-overs over up top to keep my camber where it is now.
Note to self. Shoulda ordered less offset and planned spacers to dial it in. Straight math isn't reliable when tire cross sections vary. :banghead:
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You forgot fender flares on your wide body car option, duh.....
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Make custom hubs that pull the wheels inboard slightly. Build new big brake kit with custom brackets to fit.
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You forgot fender flares on your wide body car option, duh.....
Nice. But no.
Make custom hubs that pull the wheels inboard slightly. Build new big brake kit with custom brackets to fit.
Ugg... That's a lot of work. If I end up with custom hubs, it'll be in back, not up front if I can help it.
Well here's the wheel status...
Good news first! Been driving the RX7 a LOT. It's been about splitting time vs. the Jeep as a daily. Makes me happy to walk out to this in the parking lot.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-0.jpg)
Bad news, my old Yokohama AD08s (circa 2010) got hard. Way hard. I’m sideways in any corner with even marginally aggressive throttle. Then I locked them up on the freeway braking down from a friendly blast with a Hellcat, so now I have a minor flat spot to boot. Sucks that I never managed to wear the tread out. I really need to find a local drift school and just burn these off.
In the meantime, I started looking at tires. And taking measurements. And then looking at wheels. I dig my Wedsports a lot. I still think TC-105N’s are one of the best wheels ever. I don’t know why more folks don’t run them. In an 18x10.5 they were 1.5 lbs lighter than RPF1s, plenty strong (rolled barrel if not fully forged), classic killer looks, not terrible on the cost front. Downside: they only go to 10.5” and 295 was as wide as I was willing to go on that.
So I went wheel hunting and ended up coming to the same conclusion several others have for properly wide wheels. Forgestar F14s. I figured if I was going to do this, and frankly wanted to help other Ronin widebody users maximize their wheelwells, too… that meant I should do it all the way.
Plus I really dig gold wheels on white cars…
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/ForgestarF14ref1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/ForgestarF14ref2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/ForgestarF14ref3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/ForgestarF14ref4.jpg)
What I picked (note this will NOT be my final recommendation for others!)
Nitto NT01s 315/30r18 front, 335/30r18 rears
Forgestar F14 18x11-6 front, 18x12+6 rear (deepest offsets they offer)
Tires came in first. Damn these things are wide. Blocked about my whole aisle (albeit the garage isn't large)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-1.jpg)
Kids had fun. Always wanted these shots.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-3.jpg)
Mimicked my wheel specs off something Akina ran. I ordered these back on Black Friday 2017. Instead of the 7-8 weeks quoted they took 5 months to come in. Equally tall stack of wheels as rubber.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-4.jpg)
Forgestar had an issue with a gen 1 version the F14 that a dude managed to break on track (admittedly using the curbs heavily over several events). They widened the spokes’ cross section and tied them more fully into the barrel so that’s no longer an issue.
Rubber mounted:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-5.jpg)
I wanted to run a nice valve stem and found these super shorties on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N2WM4LK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N2WM4LK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) If your valve stem lives in a recess it might not work as a few folks couldn’t tighten the nuts. Worked out fine for me though.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-6.jpg)
Same pattern as the Jeep. I was kinda tempted to bolt them up.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-7.jpg)
Wider than 33s x 12.5s
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-8.jpg)
Snapped a hover car pic in anticipation of saying goodbye to some old friends. May have been premature, but we'll see.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-9.jpg)
Tall stack of rubber, meet taller stack of rubber.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-10.jpg)
Rear with an 1/8" spacer clears the trailing arm by a couple mm. I can torch or ding in the arm locally if needed to gain a few more. The rears look great.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-11.jpg)
Up front clears the spring. I wasn't planning on clearing the spring. Honestly, I probably need to measure these wheels to see if I got the spec I ordered. This is about the same clearance I had before and I was expecting to be 8 mm tighter.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-12.jpg)
The plan was to run a 6" coil to move the perch above the tire and let me run that much closer.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-13.jpg)
Look is going to take some getting used to.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-14.jpg)
Rears are good. Might actually jump up to a 1/4" worth of spacer. Studs are plenty long.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-15.jpg)
But here's the rub (literally)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-16.jpg)
Rule for comparison. Slight poke confirmed, not what I wanted. :banghead:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-17.jpg)
Still open to ideas. Mostly rolling it around for now.
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The poke issue is definitely a problem, but it sure looks fantastic!
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Rebuild the body kit?
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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I have not looked into it too deeply but would a tri-y be easier to tuck up into the tunnel? I know it's a fair bit more difficult to make, I just don't know how long/big the secondary and primary would need to be.
From looking at the pfadt the secondary is relatively short but might make for the cake and eat it too with the power and ground clearance.
Any chance you'd sell a set without the flange installed?
Thank you.
Jesse
The more I think about it the more modding those removable ball joints looks like my best path. At least this way I can put it back to stock if I decided I can't handle it and need to order alternate wheels or tires.
While I'm noodling on that one here's a few other random catch up things I mentioned prior.
1) I went chasing a oil leak and ended up finding two of them.
First, and the more obvious of the two was an oil cooler line which was dripping. I traced it back to a failed fitting. Note to self, not all AN fittings are created equal. I won’t buy from RedHorse Performance again, that’s for sure.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilLineLeak1.jpg)
Swapped out both lines entirely. Apparently didn’t take very many pictures, but I documented how this was done once before. Fittings also don’t appear to have perfectly standard contours and lengths, so if you’re replacing a line don’t assume it’ll be the exact same length.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilLineLeak2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilLineLeak3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilLineLeak4.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilLineLeak5.jpg)
Second issue took me a bit longer to find. At first I thought I might have an oil pan gasket going bad. However after I jacked up the engine I saw a tiny line in my oil pan where it crossed the rack.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilPanCrack1.jpg)
Sanding confirmed. Cracked pan. I'm guessing it happened in my offroad excursion back when (big g-out event) and I only noticed it weeping by being under the car.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilPanCrack2.jpg)
I was going to pull the pan and weld both sides when my VP (car nut I've mentioned prior) mentioned I should check out Devcon Aluminum Putty. The crack is above the sump area so it only sees splash in motion rather than sitting oil I figured worst case I sand it all back off and weld the pan anyways.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilPanCrack3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCOilPanCrack4.jpg)
No issues in the past month of driving. I did swap out my engine isolator biscuit mounts since the old ones were showing some signs of compression set.
FWIW Anthony tells me the non-swivel kind of fittings are really best practice since o-rings can be the failure point. While that might be true, I had already received the new XRP fittings above and decided to kick the can down the road and see if these are any better.
-Joel
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2) Header Leak.
While I was down there poking around I noticed an exhaust leak from one of my slip on merge collectors. Bugger. It’s upstream of the 02 sensor and I once had my Jeep have a problem because it messed up the 02 sensor readings. The pressure waves going on with the exhaust can create negative pressure (reference also several former discussions on David Vizard and reflected pulse waves). Basically means you not only let exhaust out, you can suck fresh air in and that no good for 02 sensor trying to make tuning changes.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak1.jpg)
So I started investigating what the heck you can use to seal slip merge collectors. It’s too hot for RTV (at least per the specs), muffler mender had me worried that if it didn’t work I’d never be able to get this apart. Finally Anthony (@V8-rx7) came through with a hot tip. Apparently he had a hot rod shop recommend regular zinc anti-seize (copper is too thin, but the zinc is the ticket). It’ll bake into the joint well enough to seal things, but not be so impervious that you can never get it separated again.
I’ve seen old dried out anti-seize before so the concept at least passed the sniff test and I decided to give it a go.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak4.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak5.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak6.jpg)
Seems to be holding up thus far. By the way, if you’re doing slip on merge collectors, given my experience I’d strongly recommend dual slip collectors. Much better chance of sealing and you may want to consider some anti-seize as well.
This headache is why the forthcoming Ronin headers are using a merge spike with a fully welded collector shell. More info on that coming soon. We’re getting close.
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3) So you can't tune you car?
Anyone see a problem?
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak7.jpg)
Yah, that line got swapped with a quickness. Between this and my injector cleaning discussed a while back the RX7 is running worlds better (and hence getting driven a bunch).
4) Before this, when I was still troubleshooting, the RX7 was sitting for a while so I sprung for a new fitted car cover since the FJ40 is taking up the garage. Cal Car Cover, Superweave material, with a longer than normal skirt to cover the widebody. It works.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCCalCarCover.jpg)
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2) Header Leak.
While I was down there poking around I noticed an exhaust leak from one of my slip on merge collectors. Bugger. It’s upstream of the 02 sensor and I once had my Jeep have a problem because it messed up the 02 sensor readings. The pressure waves going on with the exhaust can create negative pressure (reference also several former discussions on David Vizard and reflected pulse waves). Basically means you not only let exhaust out, you can suck fresh air in and that no good for 02 sensor trying to make tuning changes.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak1.jpg)
After I had to literally beat the collectors off my race car, I used anti-sieze on my race car header.
I didn't really think about sealing, but that seems like a good idea.
So I started investigating what the heck you can use to seal slip merge collectors. It’s too hot for RTV (at least per the specs), muffler mender had me worried that if it didn’t work I’d never be able to get this apart. Finally Anthony (@V8-rx7) came through with a hot tip. Apparently he had a hot rod shop recommend regular zinc anti-seize (copper is too thin, but the zinc is the ticket). It’ll bake into the joint well enough to seal things, but not be so impervious that you can never get it separated again.
I’ve seen old dried out anti-seize before so the concept at least passed the sniff test and I decided to give it a go.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak4.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak5.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCMergeLeak6.jpg)
Seems to be holding up thus far. By the way, if you’re doing slip on merge collectors, given my experience I’d strongly recommend dual slip collectors. Much better chance of sealing and you may want to consider some anti-seize as well.
This headache is why the forthcoming Ronin headers are using a merge spike with a fully welded collector shell. More info on that coming soon. We’re getting close.
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i like the antiseize concept.
I'll be doing the same in the future for my exhaust work.
Also another indicator you live in rust-free-land.
the size of your antiseize tube.
I have a couple of the big cans (8fl oz i think) around the garage for easy access, pretty much every bolt that I ever put on a car gets a nice coating so I can take it off again next year after the winter salt season.
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i like the antiseize concept.
I'll be doing the same in the future for my exhaust work.
Also another indicator you live in rust-free-land.
the size of your antiseize tube.
I have a couple of the big cans (8fl oz i think) around the garage for easy access, pretty much every bolt that I ever put on a car gets a nice coating so I can take it off again next year after the winter salt season.
I always figure, if it doesn't need Loctite, it gets anti-seize. 8)
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Man, I am way overdue in updates on the build. More than a year? Crap. I guess life has been a little full. I’m looking for some transmission/clutch suggestions which I’ll get to in a bit so I figured I should try to get caught up.
The wheel offset conundrum above I solved via some careful measurements and then offsetting the ball joint holes. Ronin does now have final recommended wheel specs if you need them.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-18.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-19.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-20.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-21.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-22.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-23.jpg)
Reinforced the edges too.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-24.jpg)
Only downside of using a bolt as my filler metal was that it somewhat heat treated itself when I welded it in. I had to break out the cobalt bits and I still had to step through all the sizes.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-25.jpg)
Pain in the ass, and I figured I sharpened bits close to 200 times to finish the 4 holes. Probably should have taken them somewhere, but I was stubborn.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-26.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-27.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-28.jpg)
Took most of the paint back off the interface to help friction. Used a file for flatness which is why the paint removal isn’t perfect.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-29.jpg)
And off for an alignment.
0 toe front @ -2.3 camber
1/16” toe in rear @ -1.8 camber.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCForgestarF14-30.jpg)
This was about the last work to happen before we moved outta SoCal.
-Joel
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That looks on point!
You need a mill with a sharp carbide.
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Joel, If you ever want to make custom ball joints for S4 control arms, 05-10 Mustangs use the same shank diameter as FC RX7s. I believe the undercut for the clamp bolt is a slightly different diameter, but it works. They're press-in with a snap ring, so all you'd need to do is make some steel cups. Whiteline and a few others also make extended versions for bumpsteer correction too. I'm using the same year Mustang knuckles with an OEM FC balljoint with no real modification other than using Mustang coilover lower mounts.
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Good tip on the Mustang ball joints. Do you know if FC and FD are the same?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I take it back, a few more things did happen before we left SoCal.
New O2s (started throwing a check engine light). Ash (@largeorangefont) and I did a street tune and verified WOT was on the money re: air/fuel ratio. It still doesn’t like to idle cold though.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_1.jpg)
Idle issue seems to be related to IAC but it didn't seem to change with the HP Tuners fields we were trying to edit.
Fuel pump hose came loose inside the tank. Put it back with a fresh hose and made sure both clamps were full tight.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_3.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_4.jpg)
Had a semi throw rock and crack my windshield. Found another and was able to verify that s4 windshields do work in S5 chassis. The part numbers are different but I think it’s just the tint.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_5.jpg)
It was strangely quite emotional watching the Ronin logo head off for the dump.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_6.jpg)
Ah well, I had the Ronin decal on there for 7 years so it was time for a new one anyways.
Trimmed a bit more rear wheel arch in order to get maximum tire stuff.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_7.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_8.jpg)
Took a couple glamour shots. The one with the weird light was in the middle of crazy skies following a SoCal fire. I do not miss So Cal fires. I am, however, a big fan of meaty rubber.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_9.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_10.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_finalSoCal_11.jpg)
It's kinda one of those things that you look back at while walking away... :yay:
-Joel
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That thing is such a monster. One of the few cars I don't think I'd change much, if anything on.
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That thing is such a monster. One of the few cars I don't think I'd change much, if anything on.
It needs different seats LOL. That's about it.
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Thanks for the kind words, but there's always something. I'm back running a wing for autocross and if I run it full steep I'm understeering more than I like. I have some front canards I might add but they're a little ricer so I haven't quite decided. My seats need reupholstering and I'd love to get a GT width for passenger. Most folks don't fit in them if they're above about a 36" waist. I want to get AC back up and fuctional. Oil cooler thermostat has an oil drip. Hell, I still have traction control sitting on the shelf that'd be legal in my class. I have a friend who runs a mean 370z (blown) that makes for some stiff competition.
Biggest issue these days is a hard shifting trans that I haven't quite figured out. Bleeding clutch didn't solve it. It makes me want to say screw it and ship out a magnum but we stretched to buy this house so I'm trying to be at least a little conservative with the finances (when I post up some garage progress you'll see where I've been less so).
:secret:
Seems like all my free time goes to Ronin and/or workshop setup these days. I'm ignoring the weeds in the too large garden as well. Definitely not complaining but I have to make an effort to get out to autocross or post write ups or such.
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How is the autox scene on the big island? Car looks great, and I hate silly fuel issues too.
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How is the autox scene on the big island? Car looks great, and I hate silly fuel issues too.
Pretty good. Well run events with interesting layouts. I'm always impressed how much diversity they come up with running on go-cart track.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross.jpg)
Mostly I dig the crew. We have everything from modern stuff to a classic mini and MG drag car that runs on slicks and skinnies (and no F's given). There's a Lotus Elise that usually contending for fastest time of day. Anytime I beat him I beat him I'm feeling solid but it's a pretty tall order to honest. It's hard to get the power down and TC and ABS would be a big help.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross1.jpg)
Of course it being Hilo, weather is a factor and when it rains hard I'm a complete worthless slip in slide. The track is about 5.5-6 seconds different dry vs. wet which is pretty much an eternity on a 50 second lap. I've also discovered that with the wide NT01s, I go in a dead hydroplane at about 50 mph. Had a few exciting moments on the highway going to an from but I'm trying to build up my go with the flow chill and just be OK doing 45 if needed.
I need to get my fender liners modified and installed. The hinges pick up a wee bit of crap in the wet.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross9.jpg)
A buddy got some decent shots at one recently.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross2.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross3.jpg)
Obligatory blurry wheel pics. Pretty good lines (vs. cones) on a few of these!
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross4.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross5.jpg)
Always a good time.
I did throw the wing back on at some point. Now running one of the last built Ronin carbon GT wings. Hangs over the bumper a touch which is technically a no-no but no one I run with cares. I may throw on some front canards to help the balance as I can't go full steep without noticing a change in handling.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross6.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross7.jpg)
Two very different cars that are both rad and both competitive.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross8.jpg)
On the left is a friend's blown 370z. He's my most direct competition in class. Last year I was running XP, but I recently discovered that the rules about engine swaps from a different manufacturer changed in 2018 or so. It used to be an automatic kick to the prepared classes (hence XP), but now it's a 150 lbs weight penalty on minimum class weights which is meaningless for a full interior car and I can run SSM.
That mild looking 85 civic on the right is a factory AWD that I didn't know existed. He's on sticky rubber and can drive. Rad cars, good people both.
Anyways, fun is where you find it and I'm glad to be driving this thing a LOT, even if it is getting dirty with regularity.
Big smile on a day I ran FTD.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross10.jpg)
-Joel
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Great stuff! I actually really like the wing. Any videos?
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Good to see your enjoying your car! Your car looks really good and I love the massive tires.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Great stuff! I actually really like the wing. Any videos?
Local video blogger did a piece that featured the Lotus and my RX7. My bit starts at 11:12. I ended up FTD on this one. The Lotus kicked my ass after the handicaps were posted (typical). Episode is called money bags since we all have some coin in our rides... That is, at least compared to the "dirt bags" amateur circle track guys he hung out with before us. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbMkVWyomto
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A little thing but one that I think turned out bitchin'. Hawaii requires a front license plate. CA did as well but never enforced this that I know of. HI on the other hand, checks as part of their annual safety inspection.
Too bad since I like the nose without a plate.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_2.jpg)
The other challenge I have that my neato mesh grill blocks access to the factory license plate bracket mount point on the bumper cross member.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_3.jpg)
I really didn't want to drill holes in my shiny--still fairly fresh paint--bumper cover. Cutting slots in the mesh seams like a lot of work and again, I'm not excited about the holes (or pulling off the whole nose to mount a license plate). There's also an issue that the front plate is kinda big relative to the shape of the nose so it either blocks the radiator opening or sits up higher than looks natural. I did a high mount setup slightly angled backward back in CA and it was OK but I was never quite happy with it.
I also wanted to fully support the edges of the plate so it wouldn't bend or deform over time. That happened to my CA setup too. After starring it at a bit I decided to try mounting the plate to my SS mesh insert. No holes and it seems plenty stout.
Bit of use with a surface gauge and I ended up with this CAD template. Surprisingly skinny once I actually laid it out.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_4.jpg)
The trick to make this work is that I bent the lower edge of my plate. This skinnies up the landing on the nose and makes the bottom edge a bunch stiffer. I have a coworker here in Hawaii running a front plate that he has bent down to nothing but the letters and he's gotten away with it for 5+ years. I decided to be a bit more subtle and only added a single bend on the lower edge. There are some regulations about not defacing license plates as government property but I didn't find anything specific about what I did. Worst case, I have a cop get pissed and I bend it back.
Bar and clamps to bend. Also some aluminum angle iron and rivet nuts starting to form the top edge. That got shaved to match the bumper curvature too.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_5edit.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_6-edit.jpg)
The backside of the framework I formed over and welded (at least partly). Crustly old aluminum scrap makes for tough welding, but I got it good enough. Less heat in the rear so the weld looks shitty, sorry. It's hidden and the front side welding was probably enough.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_7.jpg)
I also did some whittling in the corners.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_8.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_9edit.jpg)
Why? For rubber trim of course!
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_10-edit.jpg)
There is a lower cross bar tucked back there too, so 4x rev nuts and the result is well supported on all sides. 4x zip ties per side hold it on (because you gotta have a little redundancy when relying on zip ties.)
The result:
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_FrontPlate_11edit.jpg)
It's as tight at I could get it while keeping the cross section at the sides reasonable and maybe it clears the bumper by 1/4" or so in the middle of the plate. I like proportionally it just fits a hell of a lot better on the nose, but it's still subtle enough with the mods that's it's not in your face. No one caught it my autocross shots so think I did a good job of getting it right and being sly about the mod.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FC_HiloAutocross2.jpg)
It's the kinda stuff that's changed--but you almost can't figure out why since it looks so right--that gets me excited these days. Bitchin' eh?
-Joel
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That is one properly over-thought and over-engineered plate setup and I freaking love it. You’re a man after my own heart Joel, haha.
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Thank you sir... I thought you might like this one.
It's the kinda stuff that's changed--but you almost can't figure out why since it looks so right--that gets me excited these days...
Exhibit A) Blake's Mustang. :cheers:
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Here's what I did for a front plate on my 99 Miata.
I got pulled over once for no front plate, and when I told the cop it was there, he walked around to the front and stood there with a dumb look on his face. LOL
[attach=1]
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I got pulled over once for no front plate, and when I told the cop it was there, he walked around to the front and stood there with a dumb look on his face. LOL
That's funny. I've seen the crazy articulated flippy plates, but I don't really want the weight of the mechanism or any such. I'm good enough with what I built that I'm just leaving it alone now. Random thought, but does it matter if we blur plate numbers on the internet these days? I always have, but yesterday's write up was the first time it was kinda a pain in the ass.
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I normally blur numbers, but that plate expired years ago so I wasn't worried about it.
About the only thing someone could gain from the number is your address and the VIN of the vehicle.
EVERYONE around here is heavily armed and quite capable. Thieves wouldn't last long in my neighborhood.
Redneck neighbors make for the best neighborhood watch programs. 8) :cheers:
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Joel, I was looking back a few posts and noticed your comment about your hard shifting trans, and that bleeding the clutch doesn't help.
That sounds like a classic case of the trans bell housing not being concentric to the crankshaft. Are you running a stock bell housing or aftermarket? I know your engine is a stroker, do you know if the mains were ever align bored?
Aftermarket bell or align bored mains means there's a very good chance you need to use offset dowels to properly center the bell housing (and in turn, the trans input shaft) to the crank.
The bad news is, you'll have to pull the trans & clutch, bolt up the bell, mount a dial indicator on the crank with its plunger on the trans register hole in the bell, then spin the crank to check TIR. TIR > 0.010" is too much.
The good news is, we sell the best offset dowels on the market:
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/dowels.html
These are the ones T-56 conversion kit manufacturers like American Powertrain and Silver Sport Transmission use in their kits.
Hope this helps.
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Cholmes. Thanks for the tip! Not something I looked at thus far but certainly worth investigating.
One symptom that's a bit weird. With the clutch on the floor in gear (seemingly drivetrain disengaged) if I rev it hard... Making noise at a stoplight or whatever, the clutch grabs and it tries to go. Not a full on clutch dump but it'll lurch forward.
Monster stage 4 pressure plate and billet flywheel but I've dropped down to a stage 3 friction disk. OEM slave, hardlines look fine (no leaks that I know of) and a wilwood 7/8" (I think) master. Grabs in the middle of the pedal travel in what seems to be a decent range.
Joel
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That could still be a misalignment symptom; The edge of the clutch disk can kiss the pressure plate (along the outer circumference of the clutch disk). We had that issue on Drew’s car.
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That could also be a sign of air in the hydraulic system, or a soft line expanding.
Many clutches have centrifugal assist weights which increase clamp load as RPM increases.
Any "flexibility" in the clutch release mechanism could allow the slave to move slightly when revved.
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Yeah, like digitalsolo says, clutch grabbing when you rev with the pedal down is a symptom of misalignment; that's also why misalignment leads to hard shifting, in effect, the clutch is partially engaged even though the pedal is down.
Cobranut, the centrifugal assist clutches with weights on the diaphragm spring fingers (Centerforce) are really just a gimmick. Those weights do increase clamp load a small amount, but only at very high RPM (8,000+). My business partner worked several years at Tilton doing clutch design and they tested that design thoroughly, frankly, the little weights held in place by a wire can cause more problems than they're worth. Sometimes the weights move, causing the diaphragm fingers to bind.
My partner typically suggests that if you have weird stuff going on with a Centerforce (vibration, slipping) just cut the wire and remove the weights. Centerforce isn't a low quality clutch overall; I have one in my car (came with it), and as matter of fact, it's starting to slip. Hmmm.
Joel could have air in the system, but he's bled it many times. A soft line could be doing it, but the grabbing when revving with the pedal down, and not at idle, really makes me suspect misalignment. The T-56 conversion companies always stress to their customers to check it very carefully; it's not that rare a problem.
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Just caught that Joel's using Monster clutch, no centrifugal weights, so that's not the issue.
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One last thing (guess I'm on a roll): the OEM slave really is crap.
The TOB slides on a bare aluminum sleeve, which can get grooved and cause weird problems with the TOB sticking as it moves. Replace it with a good aftermarket slave, like McCleod, Tilton, Ram. We use Ram's "heavy duty" one in our FC lemons car with 3800 supercharged / T5. The late T5s use the same slave as T-56, and we fought all kinds of problems (mainly getting air in it when hot) and the Ram slave completely fixed them. It's the cheapest solution we could find. We had already checked alignment.
Bottom line: while you have it apart, check the alignment, put in a good aftermarket slave.
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So if I run with the theory of T56 misalgniment due to a crank hone, how likely is it the I've damaged the trans? It has gotten harder shifting as time has gone on. This was a rebuild I had done with Six Speeds inc with most of their bells and whistles (micronited shafts etc).
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You can check the runout on the input shaft; Worst case replace the input shaft and/or bearing. That’s not that a bad job, probably easier than the removal and reinstall task. You need to get the endplay right, the rest is pretty easy work, just fiddly.
I’d bet worst case it’s the bearing in the front cover.
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Found Holley's alignment tool (AKA Quicktime). Anyone have specific versions they like better/worse? Still using a stock bell housing on mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J5U7evTSeA
Do the eccentric dowel pins only go between engine and bellhousing? My assumption is that the dowels for trans to bellhousing are left alone since those should be machined concentric to the trans input shaft bore.
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Found Holley's alignment tool (AKA Quicktime). Anyone have specific versions they like better/worse? Still using a stock bell housing on mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J5U7evTSeA
Do the eccentric dowel pins only go between engine and bellhousing? My assumption is that the dowels for trans to bellhousing are left alone since those should be machined concentric to the trans input shaft bore.
Yes, the offset dowels go between engine and bellhousing.
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The "indexing plate" must be something for Quicktime bellhousings. Normally the center register hole in the bell housing is used to center the trans to the bell, so this register hole is where the dial indicator plunger is placed. This is how the OEMs center the trans to the bell. If using an aftermarket bell, check with the manufacturer. Joel, you'll use the trans register hole in the bell.
The tool itself is ok, although the magnetic base tends to shift out of place unless you're very careful. Joel, you're more than capable of making a simple bracket that bolts in place using one of the crank bolts, then holds the dial indicator in place. Much sturdier than the magnetic base setup.
That video does a good job of explaining the process. It is important to torque all the bell housing bolts down every time you measure. The video says "same torque on all bolts" is more important than the specified torque for the bell housing bolts. We disagree. Bolt to specified torque, in the same sequence, every time. It is surprising how much bells, especially fabricated steel ones, will warp as they are tightened. OEM bells are better, but can still warp a little. "Just snug" will have you running in circles, chasing the offset. BTW, I'm not a fan of hammering the offset dowels in place like he shows. That's a good way to mushroom the dowels or raise burrs on them or the bell. Remove the bell, install the dowels, reinstall the bell.
Once you've got the offset dowels set and the TIR is good (and the center lock screw in the dowels is tightened to spec), loosen the bell housing bolts one last time and re-torque, and check TIR one more time to be sure. TIR </= .010" and you're good to go.
The guy in the video says that Holley / Lakewood offers a variety of offset dowel designs. They do indeed, and the best ones, by far, are the ones he uses in the video. The others tend to be too tight or too loose in the block. The expandable ones he uses in the video don't have that problem. They are also the most expensive by far. Summit sells them for $112.95 per pair.
Here's the thing: Holley bought those dowels from us (RobbMc Performance) in bulk for about $22 a pair, then marked them up to $112.95. Yes, really.
It's been a while since they bought from us, so maybe they've copied the design and are making them. We charge $29 a pair. In fact, some guys buy them from us in all 3 offsets (.007", .014", .021") before starting the process, so they can use the offset needed without having to measure, then place the order and wait for the dowels. Let's say you order all 3 offsets, then measure and find you need the .014" ones. You can then return the others to us; as long as they've never been installed, we'll refund the purchase price for the unused ones.
Finally, Joel, you're using the stock bell housing, so if you need offset dowels, it will almost certainly be the .007" ones.
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Well, 7 months of pandemic later and I'm been limping the car around autocrosses and avoiding hard shifts where I can. I'm definitely ready to make some trans changes. First my thanks to @cholmes for the advice on trans indexing. I'll be picking up all three sets of dowels from you guys shortly. Is there a return window I should be aware of? That said, my rebuilt T56 was only ever OK. The Monster stage 4/3 blended clutch I'm running is "fine." Given the existence of Ronin, I kinda figure I'm likely to own this car forever so I decided if I'm going to all the effort to get this put together nicely, I might as well go big...
So I'm gonna hang with the cool kids like @largeorangefont and pick up a Magnum F. I like this damn car a lot and I'd love to drive it more so it's time to give it some love. From my looking the Magnum F is supposed to be quite a bit nicer shifting. I'm also eyeballing a McLeod RXT. I thought I was there and was planning RXT over RST for some added abuse potential (well that and I just don't trust organic discs with the clutch dust issues on slaves). But then I find reviews like this https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1692102-mcleod-rxt-my-experience.html where it's nothing but dudes bitching about terrible chatter, terrible wear, and I don't know what to think. Maybe I should just keep my monster and assume my problems are with dowels and hydraulics.
Thoughts appreciated.
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Sounds good Joel. No return window, send back the unused ones anytime. Drop us an email at robb@robbmcperformance.com when you're ready to return them to give us a heads up. One thing on our dowels: don't torque center screws to more than 48 in-lb; that's not much! When people have problems with the dowels, it's usually due to over-torquing the screws.
Certainly, if the indexing is off by much more than 0.010" TIR, it can really make shifting tough. I'd start with that, and of course, make sure the slave and its plumbing is in top shape before reinstalling the trans in the car. Finding a leaking hose end during clutch bleeding that requires removing the trans (again!) to fix will make you say bad words. Ask me how I know.
If you end up with a twin disc McLeod, I'll be interested in your opinion of it, I'm thinking of that sometime in the future as well.
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@frijolee Saw I missed your call last night bud. I'll give you a buzz today!
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Okay, in addition to the Magnum F plans (still looking more McLeod RXT feedback if you have it), there's a couple more issues to solve and I could use a sanity check from folks who have gone before.
The Wahlbro 400 fuel pump is rated at 13-18A. My multimeter reads 0.7 ohm at the pump connector which implies 20A at 14V. Either way it's a bit too much for the stock 16 gauge wiring (might be 18, I'm eyeballing). I burned up a relay at autocross. It happened to me once before so I had a spare. Installed that, got one run in, then it failed too. These were all just stock Mazda relays I'd wired in (free was too appealing). Contacts on the power side seem to have a bit too much resistance so they heat up and corrode, which creates more heat and eventually it spirals. The connector failed before the fuse popped, but either way it's marginal.
No bueno.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCFuelPumpWiring1.jpg)
The cut wires and duct tape isolation? Yeah, that was me striping wires with a knife and hard wiring the halves together... in the rain between runs. :banghead: I missed one run but the dudes at my autocross are chill bruthas, so they let me take a bonus run at the end rather than giving me a DNF. Didn't matter because my car is a HANDFUL in the rain so I wasn't fast, but hey, still cool of them and it's good to practice that kind of car control. It at least got me home, but I was thankful for the breaker at my battery (controversial subject for some but I still like it). At the moment if the battery is connected the pump is running so dead battery potential is high. Obviously not gonna leave it this way and have until Nov 22 to square it away before the next event.
The piece that has me scratching my head a bit is what to do at the ends. This guy--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fix3a2sKkQw--does a good job laying out the system and talking about a few versions of rewiring. Downside, he's only ever tapping into the fuel pump connector's stock wiring, so he does nothing to address in tank wiring. I've never had a problem at the tank's bulkhead connector, but if the stock mazda relays contacts had issues I'm not especially inclined to trust the stock stuff back there, particularly if the failure mode is an excess generation of heat.
Fuel pump hanger doesn't have a lot of space to work with if I bought an ATL two wire bulkhead fitting (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/abt-cfd-504?). Here's mine pulled out as of last night.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCFuelPumpWiring2.jpg)
It seems like the only place left for me to put a larger bulkhead fitting would be to drill out the entire existing bulkhead and find a 4 wire bulkhead. That sucks and the wire sizes are so specific for the tank level sender and warning light I'm not sure it can be done. Anyone else do this with success?
The alternative I'm thinking about would be to run a single wire bulkhead for the power lead to the pump, then upsize the ground to the hanger hat (you can see it in the pic above). It's just a ground so if run a bigger wire to the hat internally then I can add extra grounding to the hat externally as well. Any downsides to this thinking? Anyone know for sure if the FC fuel tank is already grounded? I would assume yes, but I don't know for sure. Running an extra wire externally seems like cheap insurance.
If that theory all works, I already have a stack of single wire bulkhead connectors that might work from the MillenWorks' closing haul. The most likely would be this guy. https://www.tme.eu/en/details/hummel-1609070060/glands/hummel/1-609-0700-60/ While it's just a generic cable gland, in looking through the cut sheet I don't see any obviously incompatible materials. Ref: https://www.tme.eu/Document/501ff04cd9c399afb24d993205565977/HSK-M_EN.pdf
It's nickel plated brass, polyamide/pvdf internals (related to nylon and these guys give it an A+ vs. gasoline: https://www.ipexna.com/media/1485/pvdf-chemical-resistance-guide.pdf), while seals are buna-N which is also good to go. If I'm missing something please chime in but it looks okay as far as I can tell.
So if that all works, that just means I have to be sure I can find wiring that good for in tank use. I got tired of searching as there's a ton of diverging views (teflon coated wires etc). I also probably need to standardize on a style of electrical fittings that I know can carry the current. Figuring that out was on the to do list for the FJ40 anyways, but if folks have thoughts I'd appreciated it.
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If you want to spend $500 there is the Built2Apex Fuel pump hanger. It is the easy button.. but not cheap.
If it were me I'd run a new bulkhead fitting with the larger power wires needed and call it good.
I'm not running the 400 pump at the moment, but I just ran a new fuel power circuit and new pump relay in the back of the car. I run the stock connector that came off the fuel pump hangar, but it is 12 gauge wire from the battery, to the relay and from the relay to the OE tank connector. If I upgrade the pump, I will be changing that OE connector and run that 12 gauge wire all the way to the pump through a bulkhead like you are thinking.
https://www.built2apex.com/product-page/fc-dual-pump-hangar-kit
[attachimg=1]
Stu Kelley has one that is more economical, but again, I think you can get what you need modifying what you have.
https://www.stukellymotorsports.com/product-page/86-91-rx7-fc-fuel-tank-cover-sending-unit-an
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So no issue with the strategy of running a bigger power wire all the way in via a single wire cable gland and then relying on an upsized ground channeled through the hat plus existing ground wiring?
All my fuel lines are specific lengths and angles so I'd like to avoid redoing those and everything else on my hat is working well. That has me trending away from fancy hangers, but good to know there are options.
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So no issue with the strategy of running a bigger power wire all the way in via a single wire cable gland and then relying on an upsized ground channeled through the hat plus existing ground wiring?
All my fuel lines are specific lengths and angles so I'd like to avoid redoing those and everything else on my hat is working well. That has be trending away from fancy hangers, but good to know there are options.
Yea you should not have any issue with that wiring/grounding strategy.
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Joel, I agree with largeorange, you're on the right track. Use the Mazda wiring to activate a Bosch relay at the back of the car, 12 gauge power wire from relay to the pump, and from battery to relay is a good idea. Adding a 12 gauge ground wire to the outside of the pump plate is good insurance, too. A Bosch relay with a built in 30 amp fuse is handy and works well for this.
FYI, the multimeter check of the pump resistance doesn't tell the whole story, the inductance of the pump windings also affects the current draw, so the 13 - 18 amp rating is probably correct.
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Joel, I agree with largeorange, you're on the right track. Use the Mazda wiring to activate a Bosch relay at the back of the car, 12 gauge power wire from relay to the pump, and from battery to relay is a good idea. Adding a 12 gauge ground wire to the outside of the pump plate is good insurance, too. A Bosch relay with a built in 30 amp fuse is handy and works well for this.
FYI, the multimeter check of the pump resistance doesn't tell the whole story, the inductance of the pump windings also affects the current draw, so the 13 - 18 amp rating is probably correct.
Yea, I did use the relay with integrated fuse as well.
I too recycled the original fuel pump power wire as the coil trigger for the fuel pump relay to the ECU.
Just shot a couple pictures:
You can see the entire power circuit here from battery to relay
[attachimg=1]
Close up of relay to pump, OE connector I reused on the shock tower.
[attachimg=2]
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Thanks for the chatter gents. The fuel pump rewiring is looking mostly straightforward on the chassis side. The biggest wildcard at this point is the in tank wire bits and pass through. PTFE (teflon) insulated wire seems to be the hot ticket. I need to find a source where I can get only a touch though... $434 for 100' of 12 AWG? Damn... https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/alpha-wire/AT121925-RD005/3717842?
EDIT. Getting a little closer but still ~4' a foot. https://www.amazon.com/BROWN-10AWG-Stranded-600V-Insulated/dp/B008NC3GV2/ and it looks like Mcmaster has it for $3 a foot, minimum 10' lengths... https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/121/826... That's not great but it's liveable.
EDIT#2, well crap. Ran across some stories where fuel wicked up the inside of the wire insulation and tried to cause at fire at an adjacent relay. The only good news was a gent who fully melted his plugs under the hat without setting stuff on fire. https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/word-about-re-wiring-your-fuel-pump-%5Bpics%5D-921896/
If you want to wire all the way it appears the insulated stud approach is the best call. What a PITA. Can't find a good stud either. This is as close as I'd found thus far, but still a bit too big... https://www.racetronix.biz/p/bulkhead-stud-6mm-delron-viton-ss/bhs-6mss? I can pay out the nose for Radium but they only come in 6 packs. http://www.radiumauto.com/Electrical-Bulkhead-Stud-Kit-6-Pack-P1049.aspx. I might end up doing some DIY.
EDIT #3. Forums to the rescue, in this case the chatter by the 3000GT guys is the best I've found. https://www.3si.org/threads/fuel-resistant-wires-for-aftermarket-fuel-pump-hangers.816583/
EDIT #4... After wasting just about my entire morning on the internet looking at this shit, I'm going to say the most commonly available wire that looks appropriate for mere mortals is probably cross linked polyethelene (XLPE). It's sold per SAE J1128 and available in three insulation thicknesses: TXL, GXL, and SXL (thin to thick respectively). Add to that PTFE (teflon) heat shrink and I should be ok. These are fairly common automotive wires. This comes with buyer beware warning though. If I look at the guys who make serious harnesses, they're running teflon coated... IE: https://www.racetronix.biz/p/universal-bulkhead-wiring-system-4-way/bcws-001
For a slightly more exotic material, one possibility would be FEP (Tetrafluoroethylene-hexafluoropropylene / Fluorinated ethylene propylene). One of the more knowledgeable sounding gents on the 3SI forum above has a pretty good break down here: https://www.3si.org/threads/fuel-resistant-wires-for-aftermarket-fuel-pump-hangers.816583/#post-1056287295 and thankfully his amazon link is still live. Debating trying this stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Primary-Voltage-Automotive-temperature/dp/B0749H6CBD but it does have a few disadvantages, thinner insolation and low strand count (very stiff). Bah, at least I'm circling the drain here.
If the wicking is real (which seems to be a widespread claim), how the heck are there so many of these? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fue-74101?
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Thanks for the chatter gents. The fuel pump rewiring is looking mostly straightforward on the chassis side. The biggest wildcard at this point is the in tank wire bits and pass through. PTFE (teflon) insulated wire seems to be the hot ticket. I need to find a source where I can get only a touch though... $434 for 100' of 12 AWG? Damn... https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/alpha-wire/AT121925-RD005/3717842?
EDIT. Getting a little closer but still ~4' a foot. https://www.amazon.com/BROWN-10AWG-Stranded-600V-Insulated/dp/B008NC3GV2/ and it looks like Mcmaster has it for $3 a foot, minimum 10' lengths... https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/121/826... That's not great but it's liveable.
EDIT#2, well crap. Ran across some stories where fuel wicked up the inside of the wire insulation and tried to cause at fire at an adjacent relay. The only good news was a gent who fully melted his plugs under the hat without setting stuff on fire. https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/word-about-re-wiring-your-fuel-pump-%5Bpics%5D-921896/
If you want to wire all the way it appears the insulated stud approach is the best call. What a PITA. Can't find a good stud either. This is as close as I'd found thus far, but still a bit too big... https://www.racetronix.biz/p/bulkhead-stud-6mm-delron-viton-ss/bhs-6mss? I can pay out the nose for Radium but they only come in 6 packs. http://www.radiumauto.com/Electrical-Bulkhead-Stud-Kit-6-Pack-P1049.aspx. I might end up doing some DIY.
EDIT #3. Forums to the rescue, in this case the chatter by the 3000GT guys is the best I've found. https://www.3si.org/threads/fuel-resistant-wires-for-aftermarket-fuel-pump-hangers.816583/
EDIT #4... After wasting just about my entire morning on the internet looking at this shit, I'm going to say the most commonly available wire that looks appropriate for mere mortals is probably cross linked polyethelene (XLPE). It's sold per SAE J1128 and available in three insulation thicknesses: TXL, GXL, and SXL (thin to thick respectively). Add to that PTFE (teflon) heat shrink and I should be ok. These are fairly common automotive wires. This comes with buyer beware warning though. If I look at the guys who make serious harnesses, they're running teflon coated... IE: https://www.racetronix.biz/p/universal-bulkhead-wiring-system-4-way/bcws-001
For a slightly more exotic material, one possibility would be FEP (Tetrafluoroethylene-hexafluoropropylene / Fluorinated ethylene propylene). One of the more knowledgeable sounding gents on the 3SI forum above has a pretty good break down here: https://www.3si.org/threads/fuel-resistant-wires-for-aftermarket-fuel-pump-hangers.816583/#post-1056287295 and thankfully his amazon link is still live. Debating trying this stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Primary-Voltage-Automotive-temperature/dp/B0749H6CBD but it does have a few disadvantages, thinner insolation and low strand count (very stiff). Bah, at least I'm circling the drain here.
If the wicking is real (which seems to be a widespread claim), how the heck are there so many of these? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fue-74101?
I've made insulated studs from delrin and stainless socket head screws, though not in a fuel tank bulkhead.
Just turn a step on the face of one bushing and bolt it through the bulkhead.
I think delrin is compatible with gasoline and ethanol, so I see no reason it wouldn't work.
Use a bit of anaerobic gasket maker on the bolts and between the delrin and the bulkhead.
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I've made insulated studs from delrin and stainless socket head screws, though not in a fuel tank bulkhead.
Just turn a step on the face of one bushing and bolt it through the bulkhead.
I think delrin is compatible with gasoline and ethanol, so I see no reason it wouldn't work.
Use a bit of anaerobic gasket maker on the bolts and between the delrin and the bulkhead.
Ive done similar with a nylon bolt from the hardware store as a passthrough. I bought a 3/8" nylon bolt and drilled it through the middle for a #10-32 tap. I used a stainless #10 screw through the bottom of the bolt, through the bottom of the fuel pump hat. The top of the fuel pump hat had a nylon nut to keep the passthrough in place, and a #10 nut for 12awg wire and eyelet from the pump relay.
I sandwiched viton o-rings on top and bottom of the hat to seal the 3/8" nylon bolt and double-nutted it to keep it from falling into the tank. Worked for several years before I switched to a surge tank setup.
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Well, I ordered my pump wiring stuff. Turns out Ebay is by far the most cost effective source for teflon (PTFE) insulated wire. Seems quite a few folks are selling military surplus in 10' lengths. Also grabbed some telfon heat shrink. I did verify I have enough hardware to make my own pass bulkhead through. I am going to to upsize grounds for the hat on the negative. On the power side, I'm planning on a m6 stud in consideration that 304 SS has about 2-3% of the conductivity of copper. I think the bolt is actually 18-8 but 304 is damn similar electrically. Radium claims it's manufactured studs are tested to 30 Amp and that's a #10 screw size, but having some headroom makes sense to me (plus I already have the hardware which is nice)
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Well, I ordered my pump wiring stuff. Turns out Ebay is by far the most cost effective source for teflon coated wire. Seems quite a few folks are selling military surplus in 10' lengths. Also grabbed some telfon heat shrink. I did verify I have enough hardware to make my own pass bulkhead through. I am going to to upsize grounds for the hat on the negative. On the power side, I'm planning on a m6 stud in consideration that 304 SS has about 2-3% of the conductivity of copper. I think the bolt is actually 18-8 but 304 is damn similar electrically. Radium claims it's manufactured studs are tested to 30 Amp and that's a #10 screw size, but having some headroom makes sense to me (plus I already have the hardware which is nice)
Mine are 1/4" SS as well.
I use them for charge ports through the trunk floor of my Cobra. Conductivity shouldn't be an issue for such a short distance and large cross-section.
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Fuel pump rewire almost done...
Spot picked out for the bulkhead pass through (see scribe mark).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCFuelPumpWiring3.jpg)
3/8" hole with nylon bushings (carved a step into topside to index it) 18-8 stainless hardware. Teflon insulated wire and heat shrink (as already noted).
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCFuelPumpWiring4.jpg)
I'm grounding via both an upsized -12 wire to the hat and the OEM wire. The original power line was de-pinned at the under hat connector.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCFuelPumpWiring5.jpg)
Up front I decided to take the long way around so my relay can live with all the normal ones. I'm going to fuse at the main power block. Downside. I had a contact for my fans come loose here and smoke the position I planned to use. Oops, that was probably 4-5 years ago so I'd forgotten. Thankfully @largeorangefont was willing to part with his spare fuse box.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/FCFuelPumpWiring6.jpg)
Kinda crazy I did the original swap in 2005. Apparently the past 5 years managed to melt my corregated tubing into the harness where it passes the header closest.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolee2/FCFuelPumpWiring8.jpg)
Yeah, we'll be strapping that down to be sure it's all the way back against the frame rail when I put that back. Unwrapping and re-wrapping old harnesses in situ is finger killer when it's baked on there.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolee2/FCFuelPumpWiring7.jpg)
Amazing how stupid little jobs can take this much time. Still, it's one of the only shortcuts I ever made on the wiring front so it feels good to get it squared. Overall run: Battery -> starter -> behind front bumper to the main fuse block (using 30A fuse) -> 30A relay -> all along the full length of the interior to the new bulkhead connector -> pump. It's longer this way but it makes for a clean run and I didn't want to bury my relay and fuse under carpet.
-Joel
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Joel,
In addition to voltage drop, another issue with a long run can be noise.
Electric motors can generate a lot of noise, and the wiring can couple it into other circuits.
Just something to keep in mind if you have any noise problems.
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So I'm gonna hang with the cool kids like @largeorangefont and pick up a Magnum F. I like this damn car a lot and I'd love to drive it more so it's time to give it some love. From my looking the Magnum F is supposed to be quite a bit nicer shifting. I'm also eyeballing a McLeod RXT. I thought I was there and was planning RXT over RST for some added abuse potential (well that and I just don't trust organic discs with the clutch dust issues on slaves). But then I find reviews like this https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1692102-mcleod-rxt-my-experience.html where it's nothing but dudes bitching about terrible chatter, terrible wear, and I don't know what to think. Maybe I should just keep my monster and assume my problems are with dowels and hydraulics.
Thoughts appreciated.
I was in the same boat as you, RST vs. RXT about a year ago. I settled on the RST because I don't have plans for more than 500 RWHP and really don't drag race the car (Although I do have a brand new set of drag slicks to try to get in the 10's). I do track the car and definitively put it through it paces but based on GNX7's advice, I went with the RST.
So far I have been happy with my decision. The feel is as good as my previous LS7 clutch and it has handled everything I have thrown at it. I have yet to push it beyond its limits or notice it slipping. My only complaint with the entire setup is that there is a vibration/shutter/Harmonic at 1700/1800 rpms. Multiple guys on here that have the exact same problem, all of them with FD's and a variety of clutches. After much research and discussion, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is a result of the RST clutch not using sprung clutch discs. This is the only common element I can find between a few of us having this issue and some other discussions on other forums. If I wanted to spend a bunch of money, I would probably go with a Mantic clutch next time. I have no plans to do this anytime soon.
As for the Magnum F, you won't be disappointing. It is by far the best 6 speed I have ever driven.
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Thanks for the chatter gents. Car seemed to run nice on the new fuel wiring. Finished pics for completeness...
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolee2/FCFuelPumpWiring9.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolee2/FCFuelPumpWiring10.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolee2/FCFuelPumpWiring11.jpg)
Sunday's autocross was crazy rain... The grooves on my NT01s are going away so driving home was interesting. Any kind of standing water and I'd start to hydroplane if I got near 50 mph. That meant I did most of the drive home between 45 and 48 and even then I'd feel it occasionally. Since NT01s are designed to wear out the grooves (and have separate drill marks for actual life), I'm curious what this'll do when the grooves are gone. To me honest I'm half tempted to buy a tire groover and just deepen all my grooves by 1/8" or so.
Terrible idea?
Mcleod RXT, aluminum fly and Magnum F are paid for and should be headed my way shortly.
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I managed to hurt my engine at last month's autocross. It was a fun run at the end of the day and I was flat out with fairly high RPMs across the finish line when I heard the exhaust note change.
Packed up to go home, made it about a mile or two out of the track before I decided the exhaust note wasn't just off but sounded ragged. Pulled over, popped the hood, heard a fair loud/harsh ticking sound, and parked it to tow it home. Glad I did... The last time I heard a loud ticking noise I ended up with a coffee table sometime thereafter.
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijoleels1fc/8DSC_0627Custom.JPG)
So nasty engine tick, what are my possibilities? What I've come up with so far...
-Rod bearing
-Piston wrist pin
-Dropped valve
-Broken valve spring
-Bent pushrod
-Collapsed lifters
Possible diagnosis approaches
-Boroscope down spark plug holes
-Check spark plugs
-Compression check
-Top engine visual inspection
-Oil inspection: change oil... visual inspection, cut open filter, lab analysis (blackstone)
-Bottom end inspection: poking at at stuff can be done with pan pulled engine in car. Plastigage and measuring probably means yanking it.
I decided to start on the top end since it was easy and I didn't want to crank it for a compression check if I might have a valvetrain issues. Valves all look fine but I didn't have to go far before I found 4x collapsed/stuck lifters. Here's the worst one (albeit it stuck this far open after I'd turned the motor over by hand a few times.)
(https://sites.google.com/site/frijolee2/FCticking1.jpg)
My big question is whether the lifters were the cause or just a symptom of something else. These are Comp Cams "Comp R" lifters. Metal flakes in the oil could certainly jam up some lifters as a byproduct.
Reminder on the engine build
Block GM LS2 Darton Dry Sleeve
Lunati 4340 Forged Crankshaft (4.00 stroke)
Lunati Billet Connecting Rods
Jesel 1.7 Shaft Mounted Roller Rocker Arms
MTI Stage 3 Hand Ported 243 Cylinder Heads
Wiseco K395X130 forged pistons (11.25:1 compression, 4.130 bore)
Custom Patrick G camshaft (235/239 .602 / .604” / 113 LSA +2)
GM LS9 timing chain
Manton Custom Pushrods - 11/32nds Intake and Exhaust
Comp R hydraulic lifters
PRC .650 dual valve springs
Melling HV oil pump
ARP everything
I bought the engine private party after it had just been freshened by Erik Koenig and HKE. Only thing I didn't like is that the oil pressure has always been a little on the low side. When warm, it idles at about 18 psi rather than the 24 I'm used to. As such I've been running 20w50. Motor's been in the car for, I don't know, maybe 7-8 years at this point? Oil temps peaked about 225 F at the autocross where this happened. I have been having some heat management issues so I typically do a cool down and drive for a mile between passes.
So two big questions:
1) Anything obvious I'm missing on my investigative approach? My engine builder options on an island are near non-existent so I'm kinda on on my own.
2) Anything else I should do in car before I yank the motor? I'm hesitant to do any sort of cranking compression check at this point give the collapsed lifters.
Thanks in advance,
Joel
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Did you notice whether oil pressure at idle was lower than before?
I certainly think it's worth oil drain / cut open filter and look for metal. If pressure was low and / or any metal in the oil / filter, you're obviously gonna have bearing problems. Probably worth dropping the pan no matter what for a look see.
If everything looks good, and bore scoping the cylinders looks good, maybe you won't have to pull the engine. If the lifters just failed, well that's weird. On the other hand, if some crud has choked off oil flow to a few lifters, you're gonna have to trace that. My business partner's old school Mopar 440 has that very issue right now.
Finally, I've read somewhere that the plastic barbell under the rear engine cover can break and cause weird oiling problems; Improved Racing sells a billet one to solve this. What kind are you using?
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Did you notice whether oil pressure at idle was lower than before?
I certainly think it's worth oil drain / cut open filter and look for metal. If pressure was low and / or any metal in the oil / filter, you're obviously gonna have bearing problems. Probably worth dropping the pan no matter what for a look see.
If everything looks good, and bore scoping the cylinders looks good, maybe you won't have to pull the engine. If the lifters just failed, well that's weird. On the other hand, if some crud has choked off oil flow to a few lifters, you're gonna have to trace that. My business partner's old school Mopar 440 has that very issue right now.
Finally, I've read somewhere that the plastic barbell under the rear engine cover can break and cause weird oiling problems; Improved Racing sells a billet one to solve this. What kind are you using?
Nothing jumped out at me on oil pressure, but neither did I specifically check it after the run.
I was already queuing up for replacement my trans for a magnum-F but if that's gotta come out I might as well yank the whole thing.
Hadn't heard of the plastic barbell issue. Thanks for that... Is this the improved racing thing you mentioned? https://www.improvedracing.com/gm-gen-iii-iv-ls-engine-billet-rear-galley-plug-barbell.html
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Yep, that's the one. I couldn't remember the symptoms of a "bad" plastic one, I thought I'd read about them breaking, but looks like I might be mistaken about that. In any case, apparently the plastic one can let oil (at least some) bypass the filter.
Hydraulic lifters do have VERY small clearances, I guess it's possible unfiltered oil could have gotten to your lifters and messed them up. If you find metal in the oil / oil filter, and some metal bits got past the barbell, it seems plausible that could cause lifter problems. I'm really interested in what you find.
Also interesting is the one review of the Improved Racing barbell: "20 psi before, 45 psi after". Hmmm. Regardless, next time I have the tranny out, I'm gonna put one in my engine, just for piece of mind.
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Well, engine's out but it's been raining too much here for me to crack the trans off and get it on a stand... In the meantime I've been reading about the Comp R lifters and it's not great. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/1175257-anyone-else-have-comp-r-lifter-failure.html
Notably, comp changed their literature to note that you have to use these with adjustable preload rockers (which I'm pretty sure I don't have). Are LS7 lifters still the hot ticket for OEM bits?
More reading... A lot of guys making references to to Morel, most of these these posts are old.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-tech/1538031-ls7-vs-comp-cams-r-lifters-recommendations.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/367286-best-hydraulic-roller-lifters-6600-rpm.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1767326-what-makes-morel-lifters-superior-ls7s-4.html
FWIW Morel 5315 are the drop in version and a nominal step up from LS7s (supposedly). Morel 5206 are the high end link bar style.
Also reading good things about the Johnson 2110 drop in and 2116LSR.
Oh, but for every opinion someone else thinks something else and here's some contrarian opinions. This thread has about the most detail I've found... https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1783658-lifter-shootout-lifter-why-everyone-s-opinions-welcome.html
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Myself and friends have run GM “LS7” lifters in lots of stuff with good results. All street/drag stuff though, not autoX/road race, so less time spent in high RPM overall. Big power but less abusive to lifters than your use case I think.
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+2 for LS7 lifters. I'm sure my cam is much less aggressive than yours, but I've had no issues with LS7 lifters revving to 7200. Be careful to buy genuine lifters from a reputable vendor. There are lots of knockoffs out there.
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Sorry to revive such an old thread! Does anybody know if there's a backup copy of this thread that includes the pictures? I'm about to dive into hte deep end with my FC, and having those images would be super helpful
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Sorry to revive such an old thread! Does anybody know if there's a backup copy of this thread that includes the pictures? I'm about to dive into hte deep end with my FC, and having those images would be super helpful
We'll have to see what Joel has. These pictures are mapped to a Google share that is his. If he's got a new mapping to the same "image names" I can automate updating the thread links.